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Post by vakanai on Feb 18, 2021 22:40:46 GMT -5
Straight privilege and ignorance will never cease to surprise me. Velma was never born as a straight character, she just happened to have a couple of male love interest in some of iterations of the franchise and some female love interests such as having a crush on Daphne in the first Scooby-Doo movie (confirmed by James Gunn) and being in a relationship in MI with Hot Dog Water, that’s why her relationship with Shaggy was so toxic (confirmed by the writers of the show). Now, regardless of the relationships she had in these various iterations let’s not forget that there are thousands of different writers that wrote Velma, so she will never ever ever be the same character as the original show, you will have a million different shades added and taken out. Assuming that is the case, it doesn’t surprise me that writers want to explore more with personality traits or in this case her sexuality. “But then why did they make her date Shaggy? She never had a girlfriend on screen” you ask? Well that is because LGBT representation in media is still stigmatized. Warner Bros rejected both requests by James Gunn and MI writers to have Velma being with a girl on screen, not because “Velma is always been straight” but because of the stigma, otherwise they wouldn’t have allowed Velma to be attracted by Beau In Zombie Island or Winsor in Phantosaur either. In fact, since Velma’s sexuality was never expressed in the original SDWAY, it started giving way to the many speculations about her being attracted to girls. Also, if you’re really so afraid of canon remember that sexuality is a spectrum one can fluctuate on, so it’s not set in stone. No one is hijacking anyone, Velma will continue to be a detective wearing at least one orange piece of clothing, will continue to be smart, in one iteration sassy, in the other socially awkward, in one skeptical and in the other superstitious regardless of her being attracted to women or men and whether she is white, black, latina, south east asian, Native American or whatever. That doesn’t change anything BUT the your own perception on the character. If you are blinded by homophobia I don’t expect you to react any different way. As a straight guy, maybe I'm not the person who knows quite as well how to handle this representation as someone in the LGBTQ+ community. With that being said, I expect this show to have no influence on the main kid-friendly canon, so I see no reason for anyone to be upset if Velma is a lesbian. If it really bothers anyone that much just don't watch it. As for the main canon, I do believe that the original writers had no particular intention of making her a lesbian just as much as that was not the main focus of the show. However, Beau from Zombie Island, Ben Ravencroft, or even Johnny Bravo (lmao) did not seem like a confused lesbian trying to get a boyfriend like she did with Shaggy in Mystery Incorporated (which is also generally pretty separate from the rest of the Scooby Doo canon) it felt like genuine attraction. However, while she might not feel like she's strictly lesbian in particular, I see no problem with writing her character to be bisexual for representation or particularly for character development purposes (that is a much more positive and interesting direction to go in than the very annoying, obsessed, ghost-denier thing they've done instead) God that was annoying. Like, I get it for other interpretations or incarnations of the character, within reason, but not for revisiting 13 Ghosts and Zombie Island! I mean, Velma wasn't the only problem with those "returns", but was a big part of it...
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Post by russm on Feb 20, 2021 6:49:34 GMT -5
Lets set the bar low, as long as the don't have the dysfunctional and toxic relationships and characterisation that were in SD:MI I'll be happy.
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Post by scoobyfan27 on Feb 20, 2021 11:37:31 GMT -5
I notice some people are getting a bit heated. But I think as long as we express ourselves without being hateful no one should be falsely accused of homophobia or having “straight privilege”. The issue I have with Velma being a lesbian is that she was never originally written as one. There have also been various incarnations that clearly portray her as straight such as Zombie island, Phantosaur, Johnny Bravo, WNSD, Scoobynatural even the latest movie Sword and Scoob she was crushing on some dudes abs throughout the movie. Velma just isn’t a lesbian and them making her one just screams pandering and “fake wokeness”. I’m all for LGBT representation but add an original character and develop them for goodness sakes. Don’t change a heterosexual character into a gay one because it just comes across as lazy. That’s like is all of the sudden they start making Superman gay in the movies. Superman was never gay so it would be confusing and make no sense. Instead make a brand new ORIGINAL superhero that’s gay and develop him. That’ll make more of an impact than retconning a heterosexual character.
And before anyone accuses me of homophobia I’ve literally had to physically fight people who were bullying my own cousin for being gay. So please miss me with that “homophobia” nonsense because I have absolutely nothing against the LGBT community. As a matter of fact I’ve always had nothing but love towards them.
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Post by vakanai on Feb 20, 2021 22:34:40 GMT -5
I notice some people are getting a bit heated. But I think as long as we express ourselves without being hateful no one should be falsely accused of homophobia or having “straight privilege”. The issue I have with Velma being a lesbian is that she was never originally written as one. There have also been various incarnations that clearly portray her as straight such as Zombie island, Phantosaur, Johnny Bravo, WNSD, Scoobynatural even the latest movie Sword and Scoob she was crushing on some dudes abs throughout the movie. Velma just isn’t a lesbian and them making her one just screams pandering and “fake wokeness”. I’m all for LGBT representation but add an original character and develop them for goodness sakes. Don’t change a heterosexual character into a gay one because it just comes across as lazy. That’s like is all of the sudden they start making Superman gay in the movies. Superman was never gay so it would be confusing and make no sense. Instead make a brand new ORIGINAL superhero that’s gay and develop him. That’ll make more of an impact than retconning a heterosexual character. And before anyone accuses me of homophobia I’ve literally had to physically fight people who were bullying my own cousin for being gay. So please miss me with that “homophobia” nonsense because I have absolutely nothing against the LGBT community. As a matter of fact I’ve always had nothing but love towards them. Or, something I'd be okay with personally, don't make any changes "permanent" to the character. Meaning, if Velma is a lesbian in one cartoon, then in the next she's straight and maybe Shaggy is gay. That way no character is permanently "the" LGBT character. Instead some versions are, and some versions aren't. I'm not a fan of the idea that the lore must change for all future iterations of a character going forward. Each continuity should be allowed to do its own thing. Daphne and Fred don't need to wind up as a couple across the board. Some continuities should be free to add Scrappy back to the gang. Each thing should embrace being separate and unique from a previous version. Whereas now the fear is, rightfully, if something is changed, that change whatever it is, will be carried forward going forth forevermore.
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Post by scoobyfan27 on Feb 21, 2021 9:07:49 GMT -5
I notice some people are getting a bit heated. But I think as long as we express ourselves without being hateful no one should be falsely accused of homophobia or having “straight privilege”. The issue I have with Velma being a lesbian is that she was never originally written as one. There have also been various incarnations that clearly portray her as straight such as Zombie island, Phantosaur, Johnny Bravo, WNSD, Scoobynatural even the latest movie Sword and Scoob she was crushing on some dudes abs throughout the movie. Velma just isn’t a lesbian and them making her one just screams pandering and “fake wokeness”. I’m all for LGBT representation but add an original character and develop them for goodness sakes. Don’t change a heterosexual character into a gay one because it just comes across as lazy. That’s like is all of the sudden they start making Superman gay in the movies. Superman was never gay so it would be confusing and make no sense. Instead make a brand new ORIGINAL superhero that’s gay and develop him. That’ll make more of an impact than retconning a heterosexual character. And before anyone accuses me of homophobia I’ve literally had to physically fight people who were bullying my own cousin for being gay. So please miss me with that “homophobia” nonsense because I have absolutely nothing against the LGBT community. As a matter of fact I’ve always had nothing but love towards them. Or, something I'd be okay with personally, don't make any changes "permanent" to the character. Meaning, if Velma is a lesbian in one cartoon, then in the next she's straight and maybe Shaggy is gay. That way no character is permanently "the" LGBT character. Instead some versions are, and some versions aren't. I'm not a fan of the idea that the lore must change for all future iterations of a character going forward. Each continuity should be allowed to do its own thing. Daphne and Fred don't need to wind up as a couple across the board. Some continuities should be free to add Scrappy back to the gang. Each thing should embrace being separate and unique from a previous version. Whereas now the fear is, rightfully, if something is changed, that change whatever it is, will be carried forward going forth forevermore. The problem I have with that is that Shaggy or any of the characters are not gay. They are all straight characters that were made in the 60’s. They were never written as gay by their original creators. Which brings me to my original point. Instead of retconning heterosexual characters just make a new ORIGINAL character. Heck we have seen how the recurring characters have come back through the different series, why can’t that happen with a new original character? The thing is that it’s ok to have each series be it’s own thing but if you are going to drastically change each character per series you might as well make a new show. I think Scooby can be different while still keeping the characters true to who they are. WNSD is a perfect example of that. They gave the characters more depth but rather than changing them they added to what was already the structure of the character. Velma was smart so they built from that angle. Daphne was pretty yet independent as seen in the Scrappy era series so they built off that. But their characters weren’t drastically changed. Imagined if I wrote a story based on you and made the character gay (assuming your straight, if not imagine if you were gay but made you straight). Well then it wouldn’t be you anymore. I can add little facets of how you would react to things based on what I know but I still want to make your character accurate to who you are. Again I’m totally for adding NEW lgbt characters just don’t retcon heterosexual characters it reeks of pandering. And the fear of it becoming permanent is real, because ever since Tony Cervone made that statement you now have countless ignorant people on Twitter claiming boldly that Velma was ALWAYS gay since the 60’s but this is false. It confuses the fandom and people don’t know how to separate series, especially the GP. That’s why when the gang acts shocked at encountering a real monster in one series many are confused as to why there’s shock since it’s happened since the 80’s in 13 Ghost. The GP don’t realize that those are two different universes. It creates confusion.
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Post by Dyland on Feb 21, 2021 9:47:16 GMT -5
The problem I have with that is that Shaggy or any of the characters are not gay. They are all straight characters that were made in the 60’s. They were never written as gay by their original creators. Which brings me to my original point. Instead of retconning heterosexual characters just make a new ORIGINAL character. Heck we have seen how the recurring characters have come back through the different series, why can’t that happen with a new original character? The thing is that it’s ok to have each series be it’s own thing but if you are going to drastically change each character per series you might as well make a new show. This. Drastically altering characters always comes off as either laziness (just create a new, original character. Why be bounded by the confines of someone else's work) or fanfiction-y. I prefer when people respect the original creator's intention with the character, or don't break from the original characters too much - only adding depth and lore with each additional show/book/movie/whatever. That's what creates strong franchises and long-lasting fan bases - not endless reboots, retcons, and retoolings, which are just cover ups for the fact that they'd rather piggy-back of of existing "tested" success than try it out on their own. That being said, remember here we're just talking speculation about the newly announced HBO Max Velma show. Nothing has been confirmed and long-persisting rumors might not even come to fruition - even though it feels that way like it could. As much as I hate taking Scooby in an adult & random spin-off direction, I'm not going to bury this series until we have something more substantial to see. At least give it it's rightful dues first, even if you (like me) disagree with the concept entirely.
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betsy
Black Knight
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Post by betsy on Feb 24, 2021 7:32:44 GMT -5
I notice some people are getting a bit heated. But I think as long as we express ourselves without being hateful no one should be falsely accused of homophobia or having “straight privilege”. The issue I have with Velma being a lesbian is that she was never originally written as one. There have also been various incarnations that clearly portray her as straight such as Zombie island, Phantosaur, Johnny Bravo, WNSD, Scoobynatural even the latest movie Sword and Scoob she was crushing on some dudes abs throughout the movie. Velma just isn’t a lesbian and them making her one just screams pandering and “fake wokeness”. I’m all for LGBT representation but add an original character and develop them for goodness sakes. Don’t change a heterosexual character into a gay one because it just comes across as lazy. That’s like is all of the sudden they start making Superman gay in the movies. Superman was never gay so it would be confusing and make no sense. Instead make a brand new ORIGINAL superhero that’s gay and develop him. That’ll make more of an impact than retconning a heterosexual character. And before anyone accuses me of homophobia I’ve literally had to physically fight people who were bullying my own cousin for being gay. So please miss me with that “homophobia” nonsense because I have absolutely nothing against the LGBT community. As a matter of fact I’ve always had nothing but love towards them. Thank you ! I won’t be watching because, while Velma is my favorite character, I don’t have any interest in seeing her without the gang. I also resent this ever present notion that even the original version must have been lesbian ...because why? Her outfit? Her glasses? So that’s something else that bothers me...and no, I’m not homophobic; I shouldn’t have to say that...
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Post by scoobyfan27 on Feb 24, 2021 9:28:56 GMT -5
I notice some people are getting a bit heated. But I think as long as we express ourselves without being hateful no one should be falsely accused of homophobia or having “straight privilege”. The issue I have with Velma being a lesbian is that she was never originally written as one. There have also been various incarnations that clearly portray her as straight such as Zombie island, Phantosaur, Johnny Bravo, WNSD, Scoobynatural even the latest movie Sword and Scoob she was crushing on some dudes abs throughout the movie. Velma just isn’t a lesbian and them making her one just screams pandering and “fake wokeness”. I’m all for LGBT representation but add an original character and develop them for goodness sakes. Don’t change a heterosexual character into a gay one because it just comes across as lazy. That’s like is all of the sudden they start making Superman gay in the movies. Superman was never gay so it would be confusing and make no sense. Instead make a brand new ORIGINAL superhero that’s gay and develop him. That’ll make more of an impact than retconning a heterosexual character. And before anyone accuses me of homophobia I’ve literally had to physically fight people who were bullying my own cousin for being gay. So please miss me with that “homophobia” nonsense because I have absolutely nothing against the LGBT community. As a matter of fact I’ve always had nothing but love towards them. Thank you ! I won’t be watching because, while Velma is my favorite character, I don’t have any interest in seeing her without the gang. I also resent this ever present notion that even the original version must have been lesbian ...because why? Her outfit? Her glasses? So that’s something else that bothers me...and no, I’m not homophobic; I shouldn’t have to say that... I agree with you 100%! It’s like hey she has short hair, wears glasses, kind of a nerd, tomboy etc. well she MUST be a lesbian. It’s such an offensive stereotype. It’s like saying a guy that doesn’t like football or isn’t overly masculine MUST be gay. People rooting for this aren’t even realizing they are fueling the stereotypes. A woman can be straight yet be a tomboy. Just as there are feminine lesbians. Regardless, as said before Velma was originally never written as a lesbian. It’s one thing to have head canons but to start pushing them onto the actual show is crossing the line. Like there’s this new fan made real life Scooby series that’s going to have Shaggy actually smoking marijuana, when the actual CREATOR of the series said he NEVER intended to have Shaggy perceived as a pothead and was even confused people were saying that. Like I mentioned before I’m all for representation but make a new ORIGINAL character, its not that hard. It’s unfortunate when we express our opinions we get falsely accused of being homophobic or having “straight privilege” when they people making these accusations have no idea what goes on in our lives.
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Post by Ark on Feb 24, 2021 18:09:09 GMT -5
After everything I've read about MI Velma here, watching the series is like a whole new show in some ways. I'm kinda happy we had this thread even if it got a bit heated. We don't talk about Velma enough, even though she's been through some dynamic changes.
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Post by Dyland on Feb 24, 2021 19:01:39 GMT -5
It takes 2 to create heat, arkmabat. I, myself, am not the biggest fan of SD:MI, nor the direction this new Velma HBO "adult" series seems to be going, but hey, to each their own. I'm just glad people do like Scooby (regardless of incarnation) and new shows always have the potential to inspire new viewers & fans! I just hate to see derision. And, I agree with betsy and scoobyfan27 in that a lot of the "woke" sympathy does come off as, itself, insensitive and stereotypical. A great irony.
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Post by Ark on Feb 24, 2021 19:06:17 GMT -5
Thank you ! I won’t be watching because, while Velma is my favorite character, I don’t have any interest in seeing her without the gang. I also resent this ever present notion that even the original version must have been lesbian ...because why? Her outfit? Her glasses? So that’s something else that bothers me...and no, I’m not homophobic; I shouldn’t have to say that... Like there’s this new fan made real life Scooby series that’s going to have Shaggy actually smoking marijuana, when the actual CREATOR of the series said he NEVER intended to have Shaggy perceived as a pothead and was even confused people were saying that. The creators never intended for it. You can thank the interpretation of James Gunn's work for all the weird "subliminal" stereotypes mixed in with the characters. He was going for satire. Satire! And nobody got the joke. It was the movie form of Poe's Law. Scrappy is not evil.
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Post by Ark on Feb 24, 2021 19:09:47 GMT -5
It takes 2 to create heat, arkmabat. I, myself, am not the biggest fan of SD:MI, nor the direction this new Velma HBO "adult" series seems to be going, but hey, to each their own. I'm just glad people do like Scooby (regardless of incarnation) and new shows always have the potential to inspire new viewers & fans! I just hate to see derision. And, I agree with betsy and scoobyfan27 in that a lot of the "woke" sympathy does come off as, itself, insensitive and stereotypical. A great irony.
My opinion is this: if they're going to rewrite a character... just do a good job. Don't do it just for a quota (looking at Ghostbusters 3).
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betsy
Black Knight
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Post by betsy on Feb 25, 2021 21:26:27 GMT -5
It takes 2 to create heat, arkmabat. I, myself, am not the biggest fan of SD:MI, nor the direction this new Velma HBO "adult" series seems to be going, but hey, to each their own. I'm just glad people do like Scooby (regardless of incarnation) and new shows always have the potential to inspire new viewers & fans! I just hate to see derision. And, I agree with betsy and scoobyfan27 in that a lot of the "woke" sympathy does come off as, itself, insensitive and stereotypical. A great irony. I hate MI, lol Yup, exactly - so many great points being made by all. Mark Hamill once said (in response to a fan) that if you think Luke Skywalker is gay, then he’s gay. That’s how I feel about Velma. However, in general, I never saw anything about her that made me think LESBIAN - it’s insulting to lesbians to assume there is a template for them: smart, wears glasses, doesn’t dress overly feminine, etc...Bah. I love her because she’s smart as a whip and sarcastic as hell, but kind as well.
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Post by ShaphneLegacy27 on Feb 28, 2021 14:16:47 GMT -5
Why Velma out of all characters? If WB/HBO wanted to do multiple Scooby spin-offs outside the main line up, why not focus on side characters? Or even a proper retelling of 13 Ghosts which could work similar to the Duck Tales reboot. This is just like how Nickelodeon made Kamp Koral and a Patrick spin-off when they could have used this opportunity to explore outside of SpongeBob's main cast.
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Post by russm on Feb 28, 2021 14:45:16 GMT -5
Why Velma out of all characters?... Well perhaps they felt they could tell a more interesting story from her persepctive than another character? But is it not a good thing for the franchise?
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