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Post by jcb on Aug 21, 2016 0:47:30 GMT -5
the sense that ' hey this idea could work!' which tend to lead to other such moments. Well, Zac and I knew we had to create an equal comedic ensemble with the gang. Amazingly, this is something that had never been done. No one had ever taken the entire gang and given them all fully, fleshed-out, 3D personalties and POV's. SDMI's approach was too one dimensional for us (Fred likes traps, Daphne likes Fred, etc.) and we wanted the characters to drive the stories in a way that audiences had never seen. So Zac and I met up in a diner to begin working on the characters and I came in with the idea of, basically, plugging the "engine" of young Gene Wilder into Fred - that kind of on-the-edge, manic attempts of self-control Wilder plays to perfection in "Young Frankenstein" and other early films. We gave him control issues - and then built the other characters around him that couldn't be controlled. It was fun, but very surgical work. It was algebra. The other characters would be funny when they were out of control, forcing Fred to be funny as he tried to regain the control. When we'd fleshed out the characters, we made a 2 minute test of the gang just interacting (some of that scene was put into "Mystery 101" - but it was shortened and altered slightly from the test). WB LOVED the test, they loved Daphne and the puppets and, although Zac and I already knew it worked, that was when EVERYBODY suddenly said, "Hey, this idea could work!"
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Post by Soupperson on Aug 21, 2016 5:12:30 GMT -5
I would like to come to the orignal's defensive and point out the gang did have some what fleshed out personalities, it was just depending on the episode. While not really given character development it is shown who they are and what they like and dislike. While she's not as outgoing as Be Cool I adore the original Daphne, she's a bit ditzy and a big boring but she does try hard to keep up with the others. She was boy crazy, clumsy, adventurous and well spoken. The same can be said for Shaggy and Scooby who both were very fleshed out over the years. Velma and Fred are kind of iffy. I think Nicole Jaffe's voice really gave layers to Velma and made her much more interesting. Fred and her aren't given to much though as they're all ready established as the smart and fearless ones so weren't given much else. That being said Be Cool does do a great job with the personalities too! I adore Fred and Velma and Shaggy's pretty close to the original too. I'm not sure it's because I love the original versions so much (honestly I think they're perfect ) but I don't like Scooby and Daphne as much the others. But I am greatful for a different take on the gangs personalities that isn't just a quirk like in SASGAC or MI (or arguably multiple quirks in some episode of WN) and as I said Fred and Velma are better than their original counterparts in my eyes. I don't think the original is better on paper than Be Cool, it's really a personal preference on which you prefer. I love them both!
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Post by russm on Aug 21, 2016 5:40:53 GMT -5
the sense that ' hey this idea could work!' which tend to lead to other such moments. What they just said :-)
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Post by scoobnick on Aug 21, 2016 11:54:26 GMT -5
the sense that ' hey this idea could work!' which tend to lead to other such moments. Well, Zac and I knew we had to create an equal comedic ensemble with the gang. Amazingly, this is something that had never been done. No one had ever taken the entire gang and given them all fully, fleshed-out, 3D personalties and POV's. SDMI's approach was too one dimensional for us (Fred likes traps, Daphne likes Fred, etc.) and we wanted the characters to drive the stories in a way that audiences had never seen. So Zac and I met up in a diner to begin working on the characters and I came in with the idea of, basically, plugging the "engine" of young Gene Wilder into Fred - that kind of on-the-edge, manic attempts of self-control Wilder plays to perfection in "Young Frankenstein" and other early films. We gave him control issues - and then built the other characters around him that couldn't be controlled. It was fun, but very surgical work. It was algebra. The other characters would be funny when they were out of control, forcing Fred to be funny as he tried to regain the control. When we'd fleshed out the characters, we made a 2 minute test of the gang just interacting (some of that scene was put into "Mystery 101" - but it was shortened and altered slightly from the test). WB LOVED the test, they loved Daphne and the puppets and, although Zac and I already knew it worked, that was when EVERYBODY suddenly said, "Hey, this idea could work!" Wilder is one of my favorite actors. Perhaps his best work is in Blazing Saddles. so many quotable lines.So many winks and nods to the audience. so much stuff you simply could not get away with today. And he's originally from Wisconsin, Milwaukee in fact. One of the hotels downtown, has a Gene Wilder Room, with pictures from his films- Young Frankenstein, Willy Wonka, and so on.Why there isnt a Gene Wilder statue in Milwaukee, I dont know. Henry Winkler has one, but not Wilder.
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Post by jcb on Aug 21, 2016 15:14:24 GMT -5
I would like to come to the orignal's defensive and point out the gang did have some what fleshed out personalities, it was just depending on the episode. While not really given character development it is shown who they are and what they like and dislike. While she's not as outgoing as Be Cool I adore the original Daphne, she's a bit ditzy and a big boring but she does try hard to keep up with the others. She was boy crazy, clumsy, adventurous and well spoken. The same can be said for Shaggy and Scooby who both were very fleshed out over the years. Velma and Fred are kind of iffy. I think Nicole Jaffe's voice really gave layers to Velma and made her much more interesting. Fred and her aren't given to much though as they're all ready established as the smart and fearless ones so weren't given much else. That being said Be Cool does do a great job with the personalities too! I adore Fred and Velma and Shaggy's pretty close to the original too. I'm not sure it's because I love the original versions so much (honestly I think they're perfect ) but I don't like Scooby and Daphne as much the others. But I am greatful for a different take on the gangs personalities that isn't just a quirk like in SASGAC or MI (or arguably multiple quirks in some episode of WN) and as I said Fred and Velma are better than their original counterparts in my eyes. I don't think the original is better on paper than Be Cool, it's really a personal preference on which you prefer. I love them both! Hey, I love the original, too! Zac and I used it as our starting point and, I believe, made the most faithful Scooby series TO the original since the original. We only added traits to the characters, starting from where they were in 1969. So no need to defend it to me. That said, I don't really agree Daphne had much of a point of view as a character. She was "danger prone," but clumsiness isn't a personality trait. I watched them all very carefully and also didn't really notice her being all that "boy crazy" either. You don't really get a sense of WHO she is. One could project traits into her blank canvass, but a well-rounded character she was not (imho). The big thing we wanted to avoid was the "Daphne is the pretty one" angle. As I've mentioned, there's no trait we added to Daphne, nothing about her comedic character, that has ANYTHING to do with her gender. It just isn't an issue. She just HAPPENS to be an attractive woman and when anyone brings it up, she's quick to deflect it and make a self-depicting joke out of it. She could care less what anyone thinks about her. Same with Velma, really. Fred has a bit of testosterone in our series, but I think he's the only one who NEEDS to be the gender he is in order for the character to work. More importantly, for our purposes, though, Daphne was never a funny character. We were creating a sit-com situation which required the entire gang to have unique comedic POV's that worked well with one another. We were also going for a more naturalistic kind of dialogue and feel between the gang so they act like a real group of best friends who occasionally get on each others' nerves, tease each other, etc - but you know they'd also take a bullet for one another. They had to be REAL, but also heightened and funny. Frank, Grey, Matt and Kate did a brilliant job bringing them to life - in fact, I began writing the gang more in the direction of the actors' actual personalities - although Matt is not very much like Shaggy in real life - he just becomes possessed by Shaggy and channels him. Either way, I get what you're saying. There's room for everyone and you can like BOTH or ALL versions of SCOOBY and the gang. Luckily, there isn't a law that makes us choose to like only one (yet).
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Post by jcb on Aug 21, 2016 15:40:15 GMT -5
Well, Zac and I knew we had to create an equal comedic ensemble with the gang. Amazingly, this is something that had never been done. No one had ever taken the entire gang and given them all fully, fleshed-out, 3D personalties and POV's. SDMI's approach was too one dimensional for us (Fred likes traps, Daphne likes Fred, etc.) and we wanted the characters to drive the stories in a way that audiences had never seen. So Zac and I met up in a diner to begin working on the characters and I came in with the idea of, basically, plugging the "engine" of young Gene Wilder into Fred - that kind of on-the-edge, manic attempts of self-control Wilder plays to perfection in "Young Frankenstein" and other early films. We gave him control issues - and then built the other characters around him that couldn't be controlled. It was fun, but very surgical work. It was algebra. The other characters would be funny when they were out of control, forcing Fred to be funny as he tried to regain the control. When we'd fleshed out the characters, we made a 2 minute test of the gang just interacting (some of that scene was put into "Mystery 101" - but it was shortened and altered slightly from the test). WB LOVED the test, they loved Daphne and the puppets and, although Zac and I already knew it worked, that was when EVERYBODY suddenly said, "Hey, this idea could work!" Wilder is one of my favorite actors. Perhaps his best work is in Blazing Saddles. so many quotable lines.So many winks and nods to the audience. so much stuff you simply could not get away with today. And he's originally from Wisconsin, Milwaukee in fact. One of the hotels downtown, has a Gene Wilder Room, with pictures from his films- Young Frankenstein, Willy Wonka, and so on.Why there isnt a Gene Wilder statue in Milwaukee, I dont know. Henry Winkler has one, but not Wilder. Yeah, I think young Gene Wilder is one of the best screen comedians of all time. From about "The Producers" through "Silver Streak," he could do no wrong. "Young Frankenstein" was our ideal Wilder model and when I wrote Fred's dialogue, I was writing it for THAT Gene Wilder. After going through the filter of the drawings and the actors, etc, what comes out is uniquely our Fred. The Wilder thing is subtle in the final episodes, but you can see it clearly in certain scenes - like in "Trading Chases" when Fred runs into the gang with Jeff in the Egyptian exhibit and tries to play it cool while breaking the ancient urn. Have you read his autobiography? Like most comedic geniuses, he has a dark side. Pretty strange fellow, actually.
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Post by scoobnick on Aug 21, 2016 15:55:32 GMT -5
That doesnt surprise me at all JCB. the difference between genius and madness is tissue thin. Whether its Freddy Mercury or Liberace (another very talented Milwaukee native), or Robin Williams, these people perform, and project part of themselves- the music, acting, or comedy- out, while leaving something hidden. For Williams it was his drinking, for Liberace, it was his homosexuality, for Mercury the slow progress of AIDs. The difference between the public person, and the real life private struggles, are often very stark, like Dr Jeykll turning into Mr Hyde- or his ghost, as we see in one Scooby episode. Much of this doesnt come to light until after the person passes, and this is because for one reason or anothe, these actors and singers and performers, have worked very hard to keep their private life, well, private. - As for Wilder, much of what i know about him comes from the autobiography of Gilda Radner, the famous SNL comic to whom Wilder was married for several years. quirky, like actors tend to be, but a loving husband to Gilda.
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Post by somebody-doo on Aug 21, 2016 17:36:00 GMT -5
But why exactly are you leaving?
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Post by Soupperson on Aug 21, 2016 17:58:49 GMT -5
I would like to come to the orignal's defensive and point out the gang did have some what fleshed out personalities, it was just depending on the episode. While not really given character development it is shown who they are and what they like and dislike. While she's not as outgoing as Be Cool I adore the original Daphne, she's a bit ditzy and a big boring but she does try hard to keep up with the others. She was boy crazy, clumsy, adventurous and well spoken. The same can be said for Shaggy and Scooby who both were very fleshed out over the years. Velma and Fred are kind of iffy. I think Nicole Jaffe's voice really gave layers to Velma and made her much more interesting. Fred and her aren't given to much though as they're all ready established as the smart and fearless ones so weren't given much else. That being said Be Cool does do a great job with the personalities too! I adore Fred and Velma and Shaggy's pretty close to the original too. I'm not sure it's because I love the original versions so much (honestly I think they're perfect ) but I don't like Scooby and Daphne as much the others. But I am greatful for a different take on the gangs personalities that isn't just a quirk like in SASGAC or MI (or arguably multiple quirks in some episode of WN) and as I said Fred and Velma are better than their original counterparts in my eyes. I don't think the original is better on paper than Be Cool, it's really a personal preference on which you prefer. I love them both! Hey, I love the original, too! Zac and I used it as our starting point and, I believe, made the most faithful Scooby series TO the original since the original. We only added traits to the characters, starting from where they were in 1969. So no need to defend it to me. That said, I don't really agree Daphne had much of a point of view as a character. She was "danger prone," but clumsiness isn't a personality trait. I watched them all very carefully and also didn't really notice her being all that "boy crazy" either. You don't really get a sense of WHO she is. One could project traits into her blank canvass, but a well-rounded character she was not (imho). The big thing we wanted to avoid was the "Daphne is the pretty one" angle. As I've mentioned, there's no trait we added to Daphne, nothing about her comedic character, that has ANYTHING to do with her gender. It just isn't an issue. She just HAPPENS to be an attractive woman and when anyone brings it up, she's quick to deflect it and make a self-depicting joke out of it. She could care less what anyone thinks about her. Same with Velma, really. Fred has a bit of testosterone in our series, but I think he's the only one who NEEDS to be the gender he is in order for the character to work. More importantly, for our purposes, though, Daphne was never a funny character. We were creating a sit-com situation which required the entire gang to have unique comedic POV's that worked well with one another. We were also going for a more naturalistic kind of dialogue and feel between the gang so they act like a real group of best friends who occasionally get on each others' nerves, tease each other, etc - but you know they'd also take a bullet for one another. They had to be REAL, but also heightened and funny. Frank, Grey, Matt and Kate did a brilliant job bringing them to life - in fact, I began writing the gang more in the direction of the actors' actual personalities - although Matt is not very much like Shaggy in real life - he just becomes possessed by Shaggy and channels him. Either way, I get what you're saying. There's room for everyone and you can like BOTH or ALL versions of SCOOBY and the gang. Luckily, there isn't a law that makes us choose to like only one (yet). I agree with you it's the most faithful to the original by far. I think What's New is probably the second closest, but in some episodes it's rather dry of character. Boy crazy is probably the wrong word, flirty mabye? Most of the attractive male co-stars (Dick Van Dyke comes to mind), the lead singer in the band. Shaggy mentioned in the mask episode with Scrappy she had a habit of scaring away boyfriends. That's why I like Shaphne so much while she had an endless line of atractive men pursuing her she chose her dorky and scrawny friend in 13 ghosts. I think she also had a habit of trying to look good, though perhaps it was a good idea on your part to remove that. I don't know I guess it's objective then (or I read into much of these things), I allways got the sense that Daphne is more of a passive person who kept getting herself caught up in these weird situations. Rather than quitting even though she's not half as brainy as Fred or Velma she tries her hardest to help them solve the mystery, which was a process she did enjoy. Oh and I can't believe I didn't even thank you on the gender thing! Just because she's a female doesn't mean she has to be a "Miss Idependent" your Daphne has both strengths and weaknesses which is refreshing. Since A Pup she's been unlikeable in everything except What's New and the Cartoon Network films and they're not a scratch on your version. As I said I love the original, but I do really like your Daphne too.
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Post by jcb on Aug 21, 2016 21:43:37 GMT -5
But why exactly are you leaving? I finished writing second season and they haven't even aired the second half of the first season yet. There's no third season order, so I'm moving on to other projects.
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Post by jcb on Aug 21, 2016 21:52:50 GMT -5
Hey, I love the original, too! Zac and I used it as our starting point and, I believe, made the most faithful Scooby series TO the original since the original. We only added traits to the characters, starting from where they were in 1969. So no need to defend it to me. That said, I don't really agree Daphne had much of a point of view as a character. She was "danger prone," but clumsiness isn't a personality trait. I watched them all very carefully and also didn't really notice her being all that "boy crazy" either. You don't really get a sense of WHO she is. One could project traits into her blank canvass, but a well-rounded character she was not (imho). The big thing we wanted to avoid was the "Daphne is the pretty one" angle. As I've mentioned, there's no trait we added to Daphne, nothing about her comedic character, that has ANYTHING to do with her gender. It just isn't an issue. She just HAPPENS to be an attractive woman and when anyone brings it up, she's quick to deflect it and make a self-depicting joke out of it. She could care less what anyone thinks about her. Same with Velma, really. Fred has a bit of testosterone in our series, but I think he's the only one who NEEDS to be the gender he is in order for the character to work. More importantly, for our purposes, though, Daphne was never a funny character. We were creating a sit-com situation which required the entire gang to have unique comedic POV's that worked well with one another. We were also going for a more naturalistic kind of dialogue and feel between the gang so they act like a real group of best friends who occasionally get on each others' nerves, tease each other, etc - but you know they'd also take a bullet for one another. They had to be REAL, but also heightened and funny. Frank, Grey, Matt and Kate did a brilliant job bringing them to life - in fact, I began writing the gang more in the direction of the actors' actual personalities - although Matt is not very much like Shaggy in real life - he just becomes possessed by Shaggy and channels him. Either way, I get what you're saying. There's room for everyone and you can like BOTH or ALL versions of SCOOBY and the gang. Luckily, there isn't a law that makes us choose to like only one (yet). I agree with you it's the most faithful to the original by far. I think What's New is probably the second closest, but in some episodes it's rather dry of character. Boy crazy is probably the wrong word, flirty mabye? Most of the attractive male co-stars (Dick Van Dyke comes to mind), the lead singer in the band. Shaggy mentioned in the mask episode with Scrappy she had a habit of scaring away boyfriends. That's why I like Shaphne so much while she had an endless line of atractive men pursuing her she chose her dorky and scrawny friend in 13 ghosts. I think she also had a habit of trying to look good, though perhaps it was a good idea on your part to remove that. I don't know I guess it's objective then (or I read into much of these things), I allways got the sense that Daphne is more of a passive person who kept getting herself caught up in these weird situations. Rather than quitting even though she's not half as brainy as Fred or Velma she tries her hardest to help them solve the mystery, which was a process she did enjoy. Oh and I can't believe I didn't even thank you on the gender thing! Just because she's a female doesn't mean she has to be a "Miss Idependent" your Daphne has both strengths and weaknesses which is refreshing. Since A Pup she's been unlikeable in everything except What's New and the Cartoon Network films and they're not a scratch on your version. As I said I love the original, but I do really like your Daphne too. Thanks for that. I'll be curious to see what you think of her development through second season. All the characters evolved naturally and I found Daphne moving away from always having a "Daphneism" to having very strong opinions about certain places or ideas (although there are also some HUGE, weird Daphneisms along the way, as well) - all the characters react differently depending on what's going on and I found Daphne, very naturally, became the sane voice of reason in a few episodes where she even surprised ME. Her character just took over and said and did what she would say and do - I had little control. It was exactly what I had hoped would happen when we first built them - that they would take on a life of their own and start dictating what they would do in a given circumstance. There's also an episode you will LOVE (I hope), which is my friendly tip of the hat to all you Shaphne fans here. It's called "Night of the Upsetting Shorts" and it's so strange and hilarious. xo
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Post by russm on Aug 22, 2016 1:51:50 GMT -5
... There's also an episode you will LOVE (I hope), which is my friendly tip of the hat to all you Shaphne fans here. It's called "Night of the Upsetting Shorts" and it's so strange and hilarious. xo Any tipping of the hat to the Shelma shippers in season 2 <insert puppy eyes here>?
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Post by scoobnick on Aug 22, 2016 10:57:40 GMT -5
... There's also an episode you will LOVE (I hope), which is my friendly tip of the hat to all you Shaphne fans here. It's called "Night of the Upsetting Shorts" and it's so strange and hilarious. xo Any tipping of the hat to the Shelma shippers in season 2 <insert puppy eyes here>? I'm guessing not Russm If they tipped a cap to all the ships fans have created we'd also have a Fraggy and velhne moment as well. MI went about as far as they could with the Velma-Marcie setup, and the only thing those two didnt do together was kiss.
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Post by somebody-doo on Aug 22, 2016 12:54:25 GMT -5
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Post by jcb on Aug 22, 2016 13:32:01 GMT -5
... There's also an episode you will LOVE (I hope), which is my friendly tip of the hat to all you Shaphne fans here. It's called "Night of the Upsetting Shorts" and it's so strange and hilarious. xo Any tipping of the hat to the Shelma shippers in season 2 <insert puppy eyes here>? My deepest apologies, russm, but there's not much in the way of ANY shipping in BCSD. We felt SDMI covered that ground so thoroughly that we would steer completely clear of ANY romantic feelings, even secretly, within the gang this time around. Also, quite honestly, I found Velma's "approach" to her feelings about Shaggy in SDMI to be a little aggressive and uncomfortable for my tastes. If the gender roles had been reversed, it would have been just gross, moving into sexual harassment territory. I had attempted on a couple occasions to bring a Velma romantic story into episodes, but they were removed each time for "More monster!" or "Not scary enough!" story issues, so I needed to pull back on the character story to address the notes. It would have been very sweet, kinda awkward and adorable to see our Velma dealing with crushy feelings. I'm sorry I never got the chance to explore it. From the beginning, Zac and I wanted to create a show about these characters that could get to the point where the audience is so invested in the characters, themselves, that we could do a non-mystery episode, just completely about the characters and it would be totally satisfying. Unfortunately, because the show was never aired consistently and they've only aired, like, 65% of the first season (so far), no one was able to see the feedback and audience/critical reaction to show once we hit our stride, so any decisions made about content or even a third season have NOT been made on any real facts concerning the popularity of the show or our approach. Maybe when they finally begin airing them again in September/October that will change. Who knows? It may be too late. That said, we have played with romance between certain members of the gang and outside characters, but nothing too heavy and mostly because they are normal, healthy 18 year-olds, so they would naturally get crushes and people would get crushes on them. I was only kidding that the "Night of the Upsetting Shorts" episode is for Shaphne shippers ON PURPOSE. The elements in the story that might appeal to the Shaphne brigade are natural, organic outgrowths of what the individual gang members would do in that specific situation. It wouldn't be fair to purposefully throw a bone (as it were) to one group of shippers without giving everyone a little love. Either way, thank you for your always honest, fair and thoughtful discussion about the show, russm. It has been noticed and appreciated.
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