Post by spookydoo on Jan 27, 2021 12:55:05 GMT -5
Thanks again!
Here's the next discussion:
There's a more neutral comment about Scooby this time around!
However, I'm a bit troubled by the insistence that H-B stopped recycling music (much) after 1972. Is this really true, as I can think of quite a few SD episodes which reused older (even pre-1969) cues?
Here's the next discussion:
Person G
Asked this almost a month back but no answers, so I'll ask this again. Hoyt Curtin's pretty well known for his post-Capitol Hi-Q/Seely/Loose music at HB, but in the 1960s-early 70s (before Paul DeKorte and others helped and eventually took over), in the golden years of Hanna-Barbera music, Marty Paitch and Ted Nichols took over (beginning with Hoyt C.'s "Linus the Lion-hearted" 1964-66 stint), while Hoyt's music was reused just as effectiuvely as was the Seely music earlier.
Marty Paitch's credit apperars oly occasioanlly, on 1964's "Hey There It's Yogi bear" and some special styufff like "Alice" (1966) and a few others,possibly the late 1960s regular TV series. But it is Ted Nichols who is usually billed in lieu of Curtin, who DID return post-"Linus the Lionhearted", and the early 1960s HB cues continually repearred (sort of a la "Gilligan's Island" bona fide original, pre-Filmation live version when Gerald Fried and Morton Stevens, helped out by an unbilled John Williams who did get credit for some black and whites, did billied music for color episodes but with the same scores reused regardless of whcih man got billed!). (BTW "Josie and the Pussycats" music is credited to La La Productions, with Danny Jannsen and other light pop rock songwriters involved, with CUrtin gettin' billed for Josie's theme, which debuted at least in 1962 on "The Jetsons", the first cartoon outing for "Josie" star Janet Waldo-I get La La Productions did some scores!!). John Sangster gets credited for the first Aussie Hanna-Barbera production, 1971's "Funky Phantom" which used many classic (both UPA-derived and MGM/Disney derived) classic Hanna-Barbera productions SFX and scores, only the film and sound editors got 'em, misedited so they're out of place, while the use of an original composer (John Sangster who also sang and worte the title for this and for coproducer AIR PROGTRAMS INTRERNATIONAL's own 1972 "Around the world in 80 Days" costarring H-B princess of voices Janet Waldo*), the Australian team for animation (Susan Beak, Gerry Grabner,etc.), and different sound effects people made for a very bizzarre look and sound track. No laugh track, apparently. Likewise, Dick Bowden for Hanna-Barbera's "Wait till your father gets home", with Tom Bosley.
My commentary ends here, since very little classic Curitn/Paitch/Nichols and certainly no Seely/Loose/Jack Cookerly/Capitol "Pixie and Dixie"/"Yogi" era music made its way into post-1972 Hanna-Barbera producitons, with very rare exceptions (1975's "Tom and Jerry", and for OBVIOUS reaosns, 1988's version of Yogi Bear did use the 1961 Hoyt C.music).
[Different Ausssie studios and some English and Oriental studios did HB animation, but that's a bit off topic and the perioid I am covering predates any non American/Austrian coproductions.) I'm particulary asking regarding Marty Paitch, whose music graces many HB series from 1965 onward but who did not seem to get much onscreen credit. You go into any used record store and many "dance band" records of the 50s and 60s were done with him (either on his own or backing some singer or other). (Hanna-Barbera had their own HBR record label as many my age - 42 - will recall. I wonder if Paitch did any music on HBR as a mood or jazz band rather than backing the audio toons!) Also a Nelson Brock's listed on the "Magilla Gorilla" franchise of 1964-c.68 for the theme (I assume that includes the music). BTW David Gates of Bread and "Popsicle and Icles" fame wrote the "Hey there's it'syogi bear" song!
*For the record, Alistair Duncan and Max Owens (?) did the males in Air Program's 1972 "Around the world".
Person D
I meant to answer your first thread dated December 21, but got very busy at work. H-B music scoring (along with its SFX) is a subject dear to my heart. Hoyt Curtin also contributed scores for the UPA theatrical MAGOO shorts in the early-to-mid fifties. His reliance on baritone wind instruments and percussion are easily recognizable in places. I seem to recall Curtin's name in BEANY & CECIL credits as well. Ted Nichols was credited for scoring every H-B series between 1965 and 1971 except WACKY RACES and the CBS prime-time summer replacement WHERE'S HUDDLES? Both series credited Curtin, who also received credit for the ALICE IN WONDERLAND special, which (along with A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE) consisted largely of, and introduced the 'Paitch/Nichols' score commonly heard in GULLIVER, CATTANOOGA CATS, HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS, HAIR BEAR BUNCH, ROMAN HOLIDAYS, occasionally in SCOOBY and JOSIE, and some isolated tranquil moments in the 1966-'67 adventure' canon (SPACE GHOST, HERCULOIDS, MIGHTOR, etc). The 1966 Paitch/Nichols score also was heard on the few new GORILLA/POTAMUS/SQUIRREL/ANT episodes made for Saturday AM, and for the last three FLINTSTONES episodes made: "Dripper"; "My Fair Freddy" and "Rocky's Raiders". But on those shows it was usually used in smaller percentages than older Curtin cues. LAUREL & HARDY and ABBOTT & COSTELLO, made in '66 and '67 respectively, also really mixed it up.
Some episodes were heavily scored with 1960-61 Curtin more commonly associated with Snagglepuss or TOP CAT, while others emphasized the 1966 scores- or absolutely anything in between.
HEY THERE IT'S YOGI BEAR (1964) featured an entirely new score (credited to Paitch) never heard before- or since- in any H-B production. There's very little recycling of older Curtin score, a trademark of H-B series through around 1967. I can recall four: the tuba 'angry' theme originated in THE FLINSTONES; some Richochet Rabbit Western score heard over a TV; two very partial JETSONS cues during the chase on the unfinished high-rise. A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE, which
was credited to Nichols, was almost entirely Paitch score, but also used some JONNY QUEST score (considered by many to be Curtin's and H-B's best score) to convey the 'adventure' feel of the movie.
Actually, as noted above, Nicholas had started scoring H-B in fall 1965. Much of the original music for that season was of the 'adventure/spy' variety perfectly appropriate for Secret Squirrel, Atom Ant and Sinbad Jr- but much lighter than the previous season's QUEST score. But the 1965 score was far less durable than Paitch's 1966 score or anything done by Curtin before '64- both of which were heard in varying degree in H-B shows made all the way through 1972.
It seemed that most H-B shows through 1966, whether credited to Curtin or Nichols, would have some original music created espcially for it, but also use scores from previous shows. That's why a particular score will be identified as 'TOP CAT music', 'JETSONS music' and the like.
However, QUEST, ground-breaker that it was, rarely did this. Now and then you might hear some JETSONS cues during a rare moment of comic relief from the boys or Bandit. But most of its score was original- and would be used heavily in the Nichols-credited superadventure Saturday AM shows.
Many shows made later in the sixties were much more reliant on their own 'dedicated' scores: RACES' banjo-heavy 'down-home/country' sound; PITSTOP's piano heavy 'silent movie' sound; DASTARDLY's 'aviation' themes; SCOOBY's 'adventure/mystery' cues. These, too, would be recycled in subsequent series- especially the SCOOBY score, which probably had H-B's best-known background score (after the FLINTSTONES) thanks to its repetition through all SCOOBY series made through 1978.
However, the three supporting CATTANOOGA CAT segments relied heavily on older score- especially the comedic/adventurous AROUND THE WORLD IN 79 DAYS, which mixed some of the earliest FLINTSTONE cues with the Paitch score. AUTOCAT and IT'S THE WOLF had some original score (especially the former, which deftly mixed WACKY RACE cues with some wonderful new 'traveling' themes), but also reached into the past a lot. As a ten-year-old in 1969, I found it very strange to hear 'Hokey Wolf' chase music on a Saturday morning network show.
JOSIE had triple music credits: La-La was for the 'chase songs' (that season's limited order of new SCOOBY-DOO episodes also had the chase songs and La-La crediting); Curtin for the theme; and Nichols for the scoring, as one would expect in 1970. JOSIE used some SCOOBY cues from the previous season, along with some earlier score from HERCULOIDS and BIRDMAN and the occasional injection of some PITSTOP or DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY cues. There was also a fair amount of fresh score that would be recycled in the next season's FUNKY PHANTOM.
That same season's HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS was a REALLY strange story. The first two episodes had a very funky, Motown-esque score never before heard in an H-B cartoon, but fit well with the Don Kirschner-supervised 'chase songs'. But the remainder of the show's two original seasons fell back to the usual recycling of Curtin and Paitch scores. It was bizarre, to say the least, to hear Scatman Crothers or Stu Gilliam talking over score more commonly heard under Fred Flintstone or Magilla Gorilla. I've never been able to get an explanation as to the abrupt change in musical direction for that series.
FUNKY PHANTOM was the first major H-B show made overseas, and it's 'foreign-ness' is very obvious judging from the animation, layout and sound editing. By age twelve, I could recognize various H-B animator styles, especially Ken Muse, Carlo Vinci, Ed Love, Dick Lundy, Jerry Hatchcock and others. It WAS reassuring to hear familiar H-B friends Daws Butler, Don Messick, Al Melvin and John Stephenson AND earlier SCOOBY/JOSIE score. But the editing was horribly off-base: you'd hear chase music when there was no chase going on! While all the familiar H-B SFX were there, they were often misused as well. Then there were some SFX not associated with H-B at all.
These conditions also prevailed two years later in THE ADDAMS FAMILY, also billed as an H-B series. While the voices (Messick, Lenny Weinrib, Janet Waldo), 'studio' laugh track and original Curtin score sounded reassuringly familiar, NO H-B SFX were heard to speak of. BTW, you are correct: there was wisely no laugh track in PHANTOM, though there were in most other H-B series with any comedic content made from 1970 through '74. Only the straight adventure SEALAB 2020 and kiddie-oriented WHEELIE & THE CHOPPER BUNCH were spared. HAIR BEAR BUNCH, HONG KONG PHOOEY, SPEED BUGGY, INCH HIGH PRIVATE EYE and YOGI'S GANG(!) all had the tracks. Fortunately, they were removed when Turner acquired the these shows for CN.
WAIT TILL must've been sound edited in several places. Early episodes, despite the horribly stilted animation (even by H-B standards), made good use of classic H-B SFX and score. Later episodes, like ADDAMS, bore no resemblance to the studio's animation as we know it- except the laugh track.
Starting 1973 there was noticeably less recycling of older score in H-B shows. The previous seasons' ROMAN HOLIDAYS ended the tradition in high style, using what was by then up to twelve-year-old music. Curtin continued as music director, but the shows for that season (GANG, INCH HIGH, SPEED BUGGY, JEANNIE, BUTCH CASSIDY) had largely original scores, which were switched around from one series to another. Older score could still pop up now and then (the BANANA SPLITS instrumental in 1976's CLUE CLUB; DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY chase music in 1975's TOM & JERRY), but most series eschewed the practice. Notable exceptions were heavy use of Curtin's jazzy T & J score in LAFF-A-LYMPICS and ROBONIC STOOGES. Of course, 1988's YOGI BEAR revival (delayed by Daws Butler's passing) brought back the 1961 score for the first few shorts before settling into much more recent music from the much more recent JETSONS revival and YOGI's TREASURE HUNT. And Gennedy Tartowsky's recent made-for-CN FLINTSTONE movie revival was ENTIRELY made up of 1960-61 score. As it happened, Curtin had recently passed away, and FLINTSTONES: ON THE ROCKS was dedicated to him and Bill Hanna.
I could go on for HOURS on this stuff- but I won't!
If I remember correctly, Piltch also received shared credit for the classic MAGOO'S CHRISTMAS CAROL!
Asked this almost a month back but no answers, so I'll ask this again. Hoyt Curtin's pretty well known for his post-Capitol Hi-Q/Seely/Loose music at HB, but in the 1960s-early 70s (before Paul DeKorte and others helped and eventually took over), in the golden years of Hanna-Barbera music, Marty Paitch and Ted Nichols took over (beginning with Hoyt C.'s "Linus the Lion-hearted" 1964-66 stint), while Hoyt's music was reused just as effectiuvely as was the Seely music earlier.
Marty Paitch's credit apperars oly occasioanlly, on 1964's "Hey There It's Yogi bear" and some special styufff like "Alice" (1966) and a few others,possibly the late 1960s regular TV series. But it is Ted Nichols who is usually billed in lieu of Curtin, who DID return post-"Linus the Lionhearted", and the early 1960s HB cues continually repearred (sort of a la "Gilligan's Island" bona fide original, pre-Filmation live version when Gerald Fried and Morton Stevens, helped out by an unbilled John Williams who did get credit for some black and whites, did billied music for color episodes but with the same scores reused regardless of whcih man got billed!). (BTW "Josie and the Pussycats" music is credited to La La Productions, with Danny Jannsen and other light pop rock songwriters involved, with CUrtin gettin' billed for Josie's theme, which debuted at least in 1962 on "The Jetsons", the first cartoon outing for "Josie" star Janet Waldo-I get La La Productions did some scores!!). John Sangster gets credited for the first Aussie Hanna-Barbera production, 1971's "Funky Phantom" which used many classic (both UPA-derived and MGM/Disney derived) classic Hanna-Barbera productions SFX and scores, only the film and sound editors got 'em, misedited so they're out of place, while the use of an original composer (John Sangster who also sang and worte the title for this and for coproducer AIR PROGTRAMS INTRERNATIONAL's own 1972 "Around the world in 80 Days" costarring H-B princess of voices Janet Waldo*), the Australian team for animation (Susan Beak, Gerry Grabner,etc.), and different sound effects people made for a very bizzarre look and sound track. No laugh track, apparently. Likewise, Dick Bowden for Hanna-Barbera's "Wait till your father gets home", with Tom Bosley.
My commentary ends here, since very little classic Curitn/Paitch/Nichols and certainly no Seely/Loose/Jack Cookerly/Capitol "Pixie and Dixie"/"Yogi" era music made its way into post-1972 Hanna-Barbera producitons, with very rare exceptions (1975's "Tom and Jerry", and for OBVIOUS reaosns, 1988's version of Yogi Bear did use the 1961 Hoyt C.music).
[Different Ausssie studios and some English and Oriental studios did HB animation, but that's a bit off topic and the perioid I am covering predates any non American/Austrian coproductions.) I'm particulary asking regarding Marty Paitch, whose music graces many HB series from 1965 onward but who did not seem to get much onscreen credit. You go into any used record store and many "dance band" records of the 50s and 60s were done with him (either on his own or backing some singer or other). (Hanna-Barbera had their own HBR record label as many my age - 42 - will recall. I wonder if Paitch did any music on HBR as a mood or jazz band rather than backing the audio toons!) Also a Nelson Brock's listed on the "Magilla Gorilla" franchise of 1964-c.68 for the theme (I assume that includes the music). BTW David Gates of Bread and "Popsicle and Icles" fame wrote the "Hey there's it'syogi bear" song!
*For the record, Alistair Duncan and Max Owens (?) did the males in Air Program's 1972 "Around the world".
Person D
I meant to answer your first thread dated December 21, but got very busy at work. H-B music scoring (along with its SFX) is a subject dear to my heart. Hoyt Curtin also contributed scores for the UPA theatrical MAGOO shorts in the early-to-mid fifties. His reliance on baritone wind instruments and percussion are easily recognizable in places. I seem to recall Curtin's name in BEANY & CECIL credits as well. Ted Nichols was credited for scoring every H-B series between 1965 and 1971 except WACKY RACES and the CBS prime-time summer replacement WHERE'S HUDDLES? Both series credited Curtin, who also received credit for the ALICE IN WONDERLAND special, which (along with A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE) consisted largely of, and introduced the 'Paitch/Nichols' score commonly heard in GULLIVER, CATTANOOGA CATS, HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS, HAIR BEAR BUNCH, ROMAN HOLIDAYS, occasionally in SCOOBY and JOSIE, and some isolated tranquil moments in the 1966-'67 adventure' canon (SPACE GHOST, HERCULOIDS, MIGHTOR, etc). The 1966 Paitch/Nichols score also was heard on the few new GORILLA/POTAMUS/SQUIRREL/ANT episodes made for Saturday AM, and for the last three FLINTSTONES episodes made: "Dripper"; "My Fair Freddy" and "Rocky's Raiders". But on those shows it was usually used in smaller percentages than older Curtin cues. LAUREL & HARDY and ABBOTT & COSTELLO, made in '66 and '67 respectively, also really mixed it up.
Some episodes were heavily scored with 1960-61 Curtin more commonly associated with Snagglepuss or TOP CAT, while others emphasized the 1966 scores- or absolutely anything in between.
HEY THERE IT'S YOGI BEAR (1964) featured an entirely new score (credited to Paitch) never heard before- or since- in any H-B production. There's very little recycling of older Curtin score, a trademark of H-B series through around 1967. I can recall four: the tuba 'angry' theme originated in THE FLINSTONES; some Richochet Rabbit Western score heard over a TV; two very partial JETSONS cues during the chase on the unfinished high-rise. A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE, which
was credited to Nichols, was almost entirely Paitch score, but also used some JONNY QUEST score (considered by many to be Curtin's and H-B's best score) to convey the 'adventure' feel of the movie.
Actually, as noted above, Nicholas had started scoring H-B in fall 1965. Much of the original music for that season was of the 'adventure/spy' variety perfectly appropriate for Secret Squirrel, Atom Ant and Sinbad Jr- but much lighter than the previous season's QUEST score. But the 1965 score was far less durable than Paitch's 1966 score or anything done by Curtin before '64- both of which were heard in varying degree in H-B shows made all the way through 1972.
It seemed that most H-B shows through 1966, whether credited to Curtin or Nichols, would have some original music created espcially for it, but also use scores from previous shows. That's why a particular score will be identified as 'TOP CAT music', 'JETSONS music' and the like.
However, QUEST, ground-breaker that it was, rarely did this. Now and then you might hear some JETSONS cues during a rare moment of comic relief from the boys or Bandit. But most of its score was original- and would be used heavily in the Nichols-credited superadventure Saturday AM shows.
Many shows made later in the sixties were much more reliant on their own 'dedicated' scores: RACES' banjo-heavy 'down-home/country' sound; PITSTOP's piano heavy 'silent movie' sound; DASTARDLY's 'aviation' themes; SCOOBY's 'adventure/mystery' cues. These, too, would be recycled in subsequent series- especially the SCOOBY score, which probably had H-B's best-known background score (after the FLINTSTONES) thanks to its repetition through all SCOOBY series made through 1978.
However, the three supporting CATTANOOGA CAT segments relied heavily on older score- especially the comedic/adventurous AROUND THE WORLD IN 79 DAYS, which mixed some of the earliest FLINTSTONE cues with the Paitch score. AUTOCAT and IT'S THE WOLF had some original score (especially the former, which deftly mixed WACKY RACE cues with some wonderful new 'traveling' themes), but also reached into the past a lot. As a ten-year-old in 1969, I found it very strange to hear 'Hokey Wolf' chase music on a Saturday morning network show.
JOSIE had triple music credits: La-La was for the 'chase songs' (that season's limited order of new SCOOBY-DOO episodes also had the chase songs and La-La crediting); Curtin for the theme; and Nichols for the scoring, as one would expect in 1970. JOSIE used some SCOOBY cues from the previous season, along with some earlier score from HERCULOIDS and BIRDMAN and the occasional injection of some PITSTOP or DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY cues. There was also a fair amount of fresh score that would be recycled in the next season's FUNKY PHANTOM.
That same season's HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS was a REALLY strange story. The first two episodes had a very funky, Motown-esque score never before heard in an H-B cartoon, but fit well with the Don Kirschner-supervised 'chase songs'. But the remainder of the show's two original seasons fell back to the usual recycling of Curtin and Paitch scores. It was bizarre, to say the least, to hear Scatman Crothers or Stu Gilliam talking over score more commonly heard under Fred Flintstone or Magilla Gorilla. I've never been able to get an explanation as to the abrupt change in musical direction for that series.
FUNKY PHANTOM was the first major H-B show made overseas, and it's 'foreign-ness' is very obvious judging from the animation, layout and sound editing. By age twelve, I could recognize various H-B animator styles, especially Ken Muse, Carlo Vinci, Ed Love, Dick Lundy, Jerry Hatchcock and others. It WAS reassuring to hear familiar H-B friends Daws Butler, Don Messick, Al Melvin and John Stephenson AND earlier SCOOBY/JOSIE score. But the editing was horribly off-base: you'd hear chase music when there was no chase going on! While all the familiar H-B SFX were there, they were often misused as well. Then there were some SFX not associated with H-B at all.
These conditions also prevailed two years later in THE ADDAMS FAMILY, also billed as an H-B series. While the voices (Messick, Lenny Weinrib, Janet Waldo), 'studio' laugh track and original Curtin score sounded reassuringly familiar, NO H-B SFX were heard to speak of. BTW, you are correct: there was wisely no laugh track in PHANTOM, though there were in most other H-B series with any comedic content made from 1970 through '74. Only the straight adventure SEALAB 2020 and kiddie-oriented WHEELIE & THE CHOPPER BUNCH were spared. HAIR BEAR BUNCH, HONG KONG PHOOEY, SPEED BUGGY, INCH HIGH PRIVATE EYE and YOGI'S GANG(!) all had the tracks. Fortunately, they were removed when Turner acquired the these shows for CN.
WAIT TILL must've been sound edited in several places. Early episodes, despite the horribly stilted animation (even by H-B standards), made good use of classic H-B SFX and score. Later episodes, like ADDAMS, bore no resemblance to the studio's animation as we know it- except the laugh track.
Starting 1973 there was noticeably less recycling of older score in H-B shows. The previous seasons' ROMAN HOLIDAYS ended the tradition in high style, using what was by then up to twelve-year-old music. Curtin continued as music director, but the shows for that season (GANG, INCH HIGH, SPEED BUGGY, JEANNIE, BUTCH CASSIDY) had largely original scores, which were switched around from one series to another. Older score could still pop up now and then (the BANANA SPLITS instrumental in 1976's CLUE CLUB; DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY chase music in 1975's TOM & JERRY), but most series eschewed the practice. Notable exceptions were heavy use of Curtin's jazzy T & J score in LAFF-A-LYMPICS and ROBONIC STOOGES. Of course, 1988's YOGI BEAR revival (delayed by Daws Butler's passing) brought back the 1961 score for the first few shorts before settling into much more recent music from the much more recent JETSONS revival and YOGI's TREASURE HUNT. And Gennedy Tartowsky's recent made-for-CN FLINTSTONE movie revival was ENTIRELY made up of 1960-61 score. As it happened, Curtin had recently passed away, and FLINTSTONES: ON THE ROCKS was dedicated to him and Bill Hanna.
I could go on for HOURS on this stuff- but I won't!
If I remember correctly, Piltch also received shared credit for the classic MAGOO'S CHRISTMAS CAROL!
However, I'm a bit troubled by the insistence that H-B stopped recycling music (much) after 1972. Is this really true, as I can think of quite a few SD episodes which reused older (even pre-1969) cues?