Hanna-Barbera Underscore Discussion
Jan 24, 2021 13:22:44 GMT -5
wileyk209, Chorake, and 1 more like this
Post by spookydoo on Jan 24, 2021 13:22:44 GMT -5
A couple of years ago, I was browsing the old (late 20th/early 21st century) Google Groups discussion on Hanna-Barbera, specifically the underscores used (and re-used) during the classic years (60s and early 70s). I had copied some of the more interesting ones, particularly those which contained some reference to Scooby-Doo. I hope that fellow members such as Chorake and Wileyk209 are going to appreciate these oldies but goldies.
In the interest of anonymity, I have omitted the names of the actual users. Everything else is more-or-less as it was, typos and all.
I'd say that Persons D, G and H are easily the most knowledgeable about that sort of thing, especially the former. If there's some interest, I may upload the other conversations I have "saved" too!
So? Chorake? Wileyk209? Anyone else?
In the interest of anonymity, I have omitted the names of the actual users. Everything else is more-or-less as it was, typos and all.
Person A
Don't think anyone's made a discussion of this yet, so I might as well start one now:
www.amazon.com/Hanna-Barberas-Pic-Basket-Cartoon-Classics/dp/B0000033R3
I came across this interesting music collection on Amazon featuring a major selection of HB music scores and sound FX. Does anyone else own this and, for the record, does it feature all the underscore/background music heard so many times in the shows mentioned?
Person B
I got mine.
Yup. I've got the 4CD set. I got it when it first came out in 1997.
Volume 1 contains the comedy character shows (themes and backround) from Ruff and Reddy through Scooby Doo. Some with the original Kelloggs cereal intros. Volume 2 contains the prime time shows (themes and backround) and some Saturday morning show themes through Hong Kong Phooey. Volume 3 contains special music used in the Flintstones original series. Volume 4 contains H-B sound effects, phone greeting messages. birthday greetings, etc.
Here's what it does not contain.......
No backround music for the Ruff and Reddy series.
No backround music for the Huckleberry Hound series.
Some of the Jonny Quest backround music was not included.
None of the Saturday morning superhero series themes or backround.
What's interesting to note, is that all of the Quick Draw McGraw backround music is there, in light of the backround music is rumored to be the problem that is keeping the QDM video from being released.
THANX
Person C
Bought my copy back in 1996.
Looking forward to seeing H-B Classics Vol. 4 someday!
Person A
Cool, I've only listened to the samples avaliable. Thanks for the input
Although I'm pretty curious about one thing: There's one particular theme I've really loved - it's mosty used for frantic chase scenes, involving trumpets and xylophones. I remember it from the end of Hokey Wolf's "Which Witch is Which?" (best to look it up to know what I mean). Is that included along with the package?
Person B
Frantic Chase
I'm pretty sure I know the one your speaking of. Yes it's there. It's part of the Yogi Bear Show grouping.
Person D
I too bought this set as soon as it came out. In addition to what you've stated, lot of score written for THE JETSONS- my personal favorite- TOP CAT and MAGILLA was also omitted. Virtually every H-B theme until 1966 (SPACE GHOST) was included, but coverage was spotty after that and ended in 1974 (HONG KONG PHOOEY, WHEELIE AND THE CHOPPER BUNCH). There were many memorable Curtin themes within that time frame excluded: ROMAN HOLIDAYS, SEALAB 2020, AMAZING CHAN CLAN, SPEED BUGGY, INCH HIGH, BUTCH CASSIDY.
The otherwise excellent booklet does perpetuate a glaring error in that it makes it appear that Hoyt Curtin was the sole composer of H-B underscores. Obviously that was not the case in the earliest shows; indeed, 1959 'Capital' score from the Quick Draw trilogy was included, but not 1958 score from the original Huck trilogy.
Worse, Ted Nichols was accorded tremendous disrespect by total exclusion of his work in both the booklet and the CD cuts themselves. Nichols, rather than Curtin contributed score to most H-B series produced 1965-71. (Curtin was only credited on the ALICE special, WACKY RACES and WHERE'S HUDDLES.) This is why there's nothing from the 1966-68 Superhero shows as noted above- they were all scored by Nichols (except for frequent reuses of QUEST cues).
While Curtin's contibutions to the H-B studio's legacy can't be understated, Nichols' are just as memorable. His earliest 1965 cues worked equally well on comedic (SECRET SQUIRREL, ATOM ANT) and adventure (SINBAD JR.) shows. His original 1969 SCOOBY-DOO score is an acknowledged classic; he also wrote great original music for DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY and PENELOPE PITSTOP that nicely evoked the series' ambiences. It's debatable whether he or Marty Paitch wrote the 1966 background cues that originated in the ALICE special and/or the MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE theatrical that was recycled heavily in numerous series (LAUREL & HARDY, ABBOTT & COSTELLO, GULLIVER, CATTANOOGA CATS, HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS, ROMAN HOLIDAYS).
I'd always hoped there would be a sequel to PIC-A-NIC BASKET that would feature some of these exclusions. But either sales weren't sufficient, or many masters weren't available. So I made do by taping the TOP CAT and JETSONS scores and playing them in my car while driving on expressways. The effect is remarkable!
Person E
So, that's where some of those cues were first used. I wonder if the same could be said for Paitch's score on HEY THERE! IT'S YOGI BEAR as well. Does it also seem as though the score for SCOOBY and AROUND THE WORLD IN 79 DAYS were produced back-to-back? I sware some of those cues sound too much alike, it seems they've recorded those tracks in one long jam session or some junk.
Person D
Paich is given sole music credit on HEY THERE IT'S YOGI BEAR; he and Nichols are co-credited on A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE. Paich's YOGI score is never heard in any subsequent H-B production, unlike the MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE score. So we have to assume Nichols is behind most of the score that would be recycled in ABBOTT & COSTELLO, GULLIVER, etc. And yet, Hoyt Curtin receives music credit on the ALICE special, which contains many of the same cues in A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE. Confusing, isn't it?
The Around The World in 79 Days shorts seemed to use almost entirely recycled Nichols and Curtin score- largely from MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE, but some going all the way back to the earliest Loopy DeLoop days. Occasionally a cue from SCOOBY-DOO, DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY or PENELOPE PITSTOP (all of which aired on Saturday AM concurrently) could be heard. The three aforementioned CBS series largely used original 'dedicated' scores by Nichols, with relatively little recycling. An odd exception was about half of the Marvelous Muttley shorts, which would recycle old score situationally: JETSONS score for an outer-space fantasy, 'Ricochet Rabbit' Western score for the Wild West, etc.
Other than the nine shorts with the titular characters, the other CATTANOOGA CAT segments recycled older score liberally, but also added some new cues. The Autocat & Motormouse 'chase/traveling' cues mixed leftover WACKY RACE music with original score that was seldom recycled beyond frequent use in FUNKY PHANTOM. Some It's The Wolf score would be reused frequently in ROMAN HOLIDAYS, and in the 1980-81(!) comedic Scooby/Scrappy/Shaggy shorts.
While we're on the subject of Nichols score, a true oddity is the HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS. The first two episodes used a largely original 'funky' score that seemed well-suited to the characters and the Barry/Kirschner/Sedaka chase songs. (Some of this score would be recycled over the next couple of years in HAIR BEAR BUNCH and ROMAN HOLIDAYS.) But the remaining twenty episodes indulged in the same heavy recycling associated with early-1970s H-B. It seemed strange to hear Scatman Crothers, Stu Gilliam and Robert DoQui speaking over music heard on THE MAGILLA GORILLA SHOW. There must have been some unpublicized dispute between H-B and Kirschner to cause such a change. Even the title card jingle was different between the first two episodes and the rest.
Person F
I had the '97 CD of H-B themes, but pawned it, along with others, in 2005 due to my financial situation.
Person B
Space Kidettes
Speaking of recycled Alice Special / Man Called Flintstone backround cues, one other H-B show was not mentioned. The 1966 H-B series "The Space Kidettes" used a lot of those cues.
THANX
Person D
Interesting you bring that up. Until someone nicely put episodes on Youtube, I'd never seen SPACE KIDETTES, which was not part of the syndie package of H-B advernture shows, or on the CN rotation otherwise. By the time I got Boomerang in March 2006, most of the vintage stuff that CN never carried (GULLIVER, GOOBER, PARTRIDGE 2200, RUFF & REDDY) seemed to be gone.
KIDETTES and LAUREL & HARDY were really the only new comedic H-B shows produced in fall 1966. They combined Nichols' 'Alice' cues with 1965 Nichols 'Ant/Squirrel/Sinbad' and the entire 1960-64 Curtin library. The superadventure shows- SPACE GHOST, DINO BOY, FRANKENSTEIN JUNIOR- largely used recycled Curtin 'Jonny Quest' music and some original Nichols adventure score. THE IMPOSSIBLES (which, like KIDETTES, seemed 80% comedic vs. 20% serious adventure) used a largely original rock-oriented instrumental score that was seldom recycled in any subsequent H-B series.
Fall 1966 also saw limited orders of new episodes from the MAGILLA/POTAMUS/ANT/SQUIRREL franchises. All twelve of the involved segments featured the 'Alice' Nichols score to varying degrees (most heavily in the seven new Goofy Guards episodes, hardly at all in the four new Magilla episodes) while still using vintage Curtin. Had ABC renewed THE FLINTSTONES for a seventh season, those episodes would have no doubt mixed scores similarly. The ABBOTT & COSTELLO cartoons released to syndication in fall 1967 certainly did.
About half of the KIDETTE episodes seem to be on Youtube at the moment. The later ones seem virtually all 'Alice' score, but some others are heavy on JETSONS score (fitting, given the 'futuristic/outer space' ambience), and even the 1960-61 'Snagglepuss/Hokey/Yakky' stock. Unfortunately, none of the clips include the closing credit sequence; I'd be curious to see the writing credits. Mike Maltese's touch seems evident at times- when you think about it, Cap'n. Skyhook closely resembles Maltese co-creation Yosemite Sam in design and personality, if not dialect! (P.S. Despite the assertions of many animation references, sidekick Static is voiced by Don Messick- not Butler!)
Person G
All of it composed by the late Phillip Green [1911-1982], who wrote it in England for his native EMI Photoplay Records library, then licensed it to Joihn Seely [1923-2004] in Hollywood where he headed up the library divison of Capital! There's much more of that, someone who I will not name (he isn';t on this board) sent me a person 150 cut set that has so much more. Jack Shaindlin's [1909-1978] scores are also ommitted, as are Bluestone & Cadkin from that trilogy and of course, likewise the other pe1961 music..(Seely, Bill Loose [1911-1991], George Hormel [1928-2006], Spencer Moore, Shaindlin,etc.) Earl Kress and Dr.Demenento DO acknoledge its use. Mr.Kress recalled the COmedy Walker 1 (the Snooper and Bl;abber open one) also used (correctly) in My Three Sons.
Person H
The 1966 seasons also used Johnny Quest score a lot more, and used more of them. It would often suddenly just pop in there out of nowhere in a dangerous scene. Quite an interesting "surprise". Between those and the superadventures, I had thought all of that was new, until Johnny Quest started rerunning on NBC in '79, and then, I watched it more intensely on CN and BOOM.
Some of the cues had begun creeping in the 65 season as well, including the final Flintstones season. I love in the Stonefinger Caper, how they're playing the usual music, and then the tiger in the prison begin coming towards using a Quest cue, then Gazoo changes it to a cub, and it's an earlier Flintstone syle rendition of "rockabye baby", then the guards begin running toward them with a common fast-paced Quest cue, until Gazoo turns them into babies.
I don't know anything about the "Alice" special. Is the score from that the one that the Scooby episode Decoy for a Dognapper begins with?
Person B
Space Kidette end credits
Actually the Space Kidette's end credits are very sparce. The only writing credit is "Story - Tony Benedict".
THANX
Person I
I've been watching a bunch of 'Ozzie and Harriet' shows . There are times when most of the undermusic is the same as the early Hanna Barbera's. I've always wondered where this stock music originated.
What's surprising is that it fits as well for Ozzie, as it does for Yogi !
Person D
Good example; actually, QUEST score did appear sparingly in some comedic 1964-65 cartoons as well. FLINTSTONE Season 5's "Dr. Sinister" used it at the very beginning, on the "Jay Bondrock" TV show the boys are watching. Snatches of QUEST score are also heard in isolated Potamus and Breezely episodes as well, if you listen really carefully.
QUEST score was also common in the other fall 1965 arrivals, especially episodes of Atom, Secret, and the semicomedic SINBAD JR.
The ALICE special originally ran in NBC's prime-time schedule in Spring 1966, just when THE FLINTSTONES was winding up its prime-time run and prior to MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE's theatrical release. It may have had some syndicated repeat appearances; I remember seeing it in a late Sunday afternoon slot around 1980 or '81. NYC's Museum of TV & Radio has a print of it. It doesn't seem like CN or Boomerang has ever repeated it, unlike the following year's Jack and the Beanstalk special with Gene Kelly.
Anyhoo, various cues in the '1966 Nichols score' (to solidify the term as it seems to be used in this thread) may have originated in either MNF, ALICE or both. FWIW I've seen MNF many more times than ALICE, so am much more familiar with the former. So it's difficult to identify which particular cue 'comes from' one or the other. The cue to which you refer that is heard at the beginning of the SCOOBY episode apparently made its debut in MNF. Early in the morning, Fred is searching the hotel and Rome streets for Triple-X, and mistaking various others (an old lady, a baby in carriage) for him.
This particular cue, which commonly was heard in 'morning' scenes, or as a scene or episode intro, was particularly durable. It opens many ROMAN HOLIDAY episodes six years later!
I do recall the climactic chase in ALICE introducing another cue heard in Decoy for a Dognapper, when the gang sees what they think is a rampaging Indian on the railroad track. It would later be heard in virtually every GULLIVER chase scene, and occasionally in MOTOR MOUSE and GLOBETROTTERS as well.
So the '1966 Nichols score' really started in early 1966 and not that fall with the premiere of SPACE KIDETTES, LAUREL & HARDY and new episodes of the GORILLA, POTAMUS, ANT and SQUIRREL franchises. Its only conventional use- i.e. TV series, rather than TV special or theatrical movie- was on the last few FLINTSTONE episodes. That includes Dripper (Fred taking a running start on the diving board, Barney discovering Dripper bouncing Fred); Rocky's Raiders (at the very end, when we learn that Rocky and Reggie are still fighting Baron Von Rickenrock); the series finale My Fair Freddy (The Korman-narrated tour of the Stonyside Country Club; Fred shrinking in humiliation after being discovered in ballet tights).
Fascinating stuff, isn't it?
Person D
Surprising for a Saturday AM network show to have such sparse credits. I suspected the stories were from Benedict (who seemed to enjoy combining cuteness with slapstick cartoon injury), Maltese and/or Dalton Sandifer. They and Warren Foster apparently wrote virtually all H-B shorts 1960-66. Foster seems to have retired sometime between '66 (his last known credit was A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE) and '68. By then Maltese and Sandifer were credited on WACKY RACES, and Benedict was at DFE.
H-B was very negligent in providing credits or closing credit sequences for many of its syndicated shows. MAGILLA and POTAMUS did have the latter, but they were badly lacking: John Stephenson (Col. Fuzzby), Hal Smith (The King, Yappee) and Doug Young (Yippee) are missing, and there were certainly more than six animators. But that's better than what credit info was offered for the WALLY/LIPPY/TOUCHE trilogy or SINBAD: nothing. LAUREL & HARDY and ABBOTT & COSTELLO did list voice credits in their title sequences, but nothing else.
Conversely, Saturday AM network shows of the period- ATOM ANT, SECRET SQUIRREL, SPACE GHOST/DINO BOY, FRANKENSTEIN JR/IMPOSSIBLES had full opening and closing themes, and full credits. OK, maybe not full; Ken Muse animated on one Precious Pupp and two Hillbilly Bears, but his name does not appear in the ATOM ANT credits. But at least the shows are presented as close as possible to their original forms.
So it's a complete mystery who wrote for SINBAD, L&H and A&C. The former was equal parts comedy and adventure. So it could have been the four 'comedic' writers with possible assist from QUEST/SPACE GHOST writers Bill Hamilton, Doug Wildey, and even Ruby and Spears themselves. Ruby and Spears did receive credit on most of the Superadventure shows. As for the Vintage Comic Team Adaptations, they seem largely the work of Benedict and Sandifer- and Foster, if he wasn't retired by that time. Maltese might have used his gift for verbal humor on Bud 'n Lou. Tom Dagenais, who wrote for several Superadventure shows before becoming a mainstay on the comedic shows in 1969, may have had a hand as well.
And getting back to the original subject of this thread, it's interesting to note that PIC-A-NIC BASKET skips all the way from SPACE GHOST to BANANA SPLITS, with the other Superadventure shows completely omitted. Too bad; FRANKENSTEIN/IMPOSSIBLES had a great, funky theme enhanced by a 'rapping' Paul Frees. Maybe the others were too monotonous, or not as memorable as the STAR TREK-esque female trilling under the GHOST theme.
Person H
That must be John Seely, then. His music was used on early HB, and other places during a stike in '58 (even some Looney Tunes), and can be heard many other places as well.
Person H
That I'm aware of. Dr. Sinister used that "creepy crawly" piece later on when he had them bound to throw into the bottomless pit. I didn't remember the one at the beginning, and that was one of the ones I thought was new with Space Ghost, where it is used heavily. Magilla "Camp Scamps" even used one piece when the kids were tying to pry loose the rock, and that was the only one I was familiar with when I started seeing the superadventures in sydication in '78. Then the ascending horn chords at 3/4 time when Fred and then Barney encounter the phony Martian on Mars. Because of the horns, that did fit in more with the earlier score.
Meanwhile, my favorite is the "Dragons of Akkida" theme, and the only time it is ever used in the comedic shows is at the beginning of a '66 Peter Potamus episode. Was surprised it was from Quest, and not made for Space Ghost and Dino Boy where it is most frequently used (the latter which reuses the piece along with the dragons, renamed "lizard hounds" when they chase Ugh in one episode).
The other side of this is the comedic pieces used in the superadventures. Like one with Blip opening and closing the iron bar prison doors on someone. Generally ssociated with mechanics, and I remember Fred and Barney either panning for gold or someone doing something with an assembly like or something lie that.
I saw clips of Sinbad on retrojunk. I'm getting conflicting information. There were two seasons; '65 and '66. The first Cartoon Encyclopedia had both seasons produced by HB. The second edition had the first season by Sam Singer productions, then then the second season it transferred to HB. Retrojunk had a clip of both. Yet now, on Mark Evanier's blog a few weeks ago, he says the Singer episodes were made earlier, and both those and the new HB's aired together in '65. Or at least; he mentions the surprise of turning on the show in '65 and it was changed. So I'm not sure if they alternated the versions of the show the same season, or if he got the time mixed up, and watched the original in '65, and then saw the changed one in '66.
The piece on the railroad track is one I've heard on several '65 dated episodes, particularly Atom Ant, Secret Squirrel and related shows. As with several of the other pieces used on dognapper. they are so mixed together, and used in the same shows, it was hard to tell which was which. So I thought those were new with AA and SQ, and pehaps some of the others with MCF and Space Kiddettes. It did always seem newer than the '65 era fare, and I saw all of those as the "new generation" of score (thought it was new with Scooby at first) along with everything else being introuced then. (that must be because it was Nichols. Never knew which one did which cues). There was one piece heavily used on Pebbles and Bamm Bamm I thought was new with that show that I was surprised to see went back to the last Flintstone season. (It's used in Scooby meets Jeannie in part of the picnic scene).
Now you're saying they all began with Alice in "early '66". I know that the Flinstone episodes continued being recorded into '66, debuting as late as March. So were these AA and SQ episodes I saw produced later in the season as well?
Person G
[Re Ozzie and Harriet comment above]
Yep,though he didn't compose all.. M
GAC Forums has had a recent rhead on this, the "Stock music in TV cartoons that you like"?]
The music originated in vairous 1940s libraries, including one John Seely was with in 1940s called Capital Q, then as it got more popular (from all the libraries), it fell in 1955 or so as sub-leased under Seely's then new Capitol Hi=-Q Production.
Libaries, and Composers were:
CAPITOL Q (early eiditon) Mutle
Dave & (son) Byron Chudnow
Herschel BurkeGilbert
Alexander Laszo
and others
EMI PHOTPLAY UK
Phillip Green
LANGLKOIS, now CINEMUSIC
Jack Shaindlin
CAPITOL/Seely
Seely and Loose
Cakdin and Bleusotne'
Jack Cookerly
George Hormel
Specner Moore
and some others.
By this (196) point, after constant recrediting and retitled cues with generic "number/letter/number" code [10-D-9, for instance] cues, the library was now as known today underway, and [Bill] Loose went and divided it under different categories. Comedic/Light [L], Dramatic [D], Experimental {X-this sonds like the stuff that was used in the ealry "Gumby on the moon needs to be recued" pilot episodes], Musical [M--yeah, confusing by now category wise] and Special . By the later fifties some more music and cross licensing was done in yet another series, Production Music Services [This would have the majority of the hevay string music used more on Gumby than on say, Yogi, yet Augie Doggie seemed to have more of the orchestral music.]
Phil Green's, recorded in UK, was which was used for those "Picnic BAsket tracks", btw as I have noted.''
And no0w for THE secret..
TRACK 15 (QUICK DRAW)
First is EM-CT-3, two different ones (Second one is heard all through the Looney Tune short ":Gopher Broke" with those over polite rodents)(1958), and the third is Rural Foxtrot (Iheard on Gumby only once, in ":Chick Feed'< but nermous times in QUick Draw)
TRACK 17 (AUGIE)
Busy Activity from the Kiddie Comedy suite, then 4-PG-131H, then Another of the "City Suite" themes
19 (SUPER SNOOPER)
Comedy Walkers 1 (again, refers to the first two tracks as in the Quick Draw
track!) then third, EM-CT-3 Comedy Circuws (mistitled Toboggan Run since it's under Foghorn Leghorn in Weasel While You work, which utlilized the first of the three under the main title while Bird in a Bonnett had the second-Toboggan;s a Jack Shaindlin-composed track use din Huck, Yogi, Ruff/Reddy, Jinksy, and one Gumby, Racing Game (which IS avaible on that current Gumby Essentuals: The 50s episodes--it's right before clayboy and horse finsih)>
(Whew) And Hoyt Curitn's dedicated gthems for each (Snoooper, besides hiom and Blabber wearing clothes, are also seperated from the other two segments of Qucik Draw McGraw by having a seperate open and a seperate close them.)'
(Sorry for long post!)
By the way information is courtesy of:
Jon Burlingame, "TV's Greatest Hits", Schirmer Books, 1996, 1-12
"Blake", on an undisclosed forum, and Graham Newton's page whcih had a good scan of the John Seely album by "Phillip Green", and "Blake"'s post on a forum which shall remaiun secret by his request, and comparing the titles (the Augie Doggier march that occupies the third of the 17 track on the first CD of that Hanna-Barbera colleciton, 4-PG-131H..)
Person G
At least nine "Phil Green" cues [3 each for Quick, for Augie and for the MID seciton Snooper and blabber, but 100 times more (if you've seen them on Hanna Barbera's site or YouTube, or heard 'em elsewhere or reach into your memory) of those (both by Green, and by Cadkin and Bluestone, Jack Shaindlin, Roger Roger, Jack Cookerly,etc.) are missing as well, from those same..not to mention the different shorter takes on the music tracks in there.
Person H
I must say, the New England Jazz Ensemble's version of "We Wish You a Merry Christmas", (which plays on cable's Music Choice) has horn lines (tenor?) sounding just like Curtin or Nichols (not sure which is which, still), circa 1966. You would swear it was them, as it sounds like it's right out of "The Man Called Flintstone". (Like the jazzy rendition of the theme song that plays throughout).
Don't think anyone's made a discussion of this yet, so I might as well start one now:
www.amazon.com/Hanna-Barberas-Pic-Basket-Cartoon-Classics/dp/B0000033R3
I came across this interesting music collection on Amazon featuring a major selection of HB music scores and sound FX. Does anyone else own this and, for the record, does it feature all the underscore/background music heard so many times in the shows mentioned?
Person B
I got mine.
Yup. I've got the 4CD set. I got it when it first came out in 1997.
Volume 1 contains the comedy character shows (themes and backround) from Ruff and Reddy through Scooby Doo. Some with the original Kelloggs cereal intros. Volume 2 contains the prime time shows (themes and backround) and some Saturday morning show themes through Hong Kong Phooey. Volume 3 contains special music used in the Flintstones original series. Volume 4 contains H-B sound effects, phone greeting messages. birthday greetings, etc.
Here's what it does not contain.......
No backround music for the Ruff and Reddy series.
No backround music for the Huckleberry Hound series.
Some of the Jonny Quest backround music was not included.
None of the Saturday morning superhero series themes or backround.
What's interesting to note, is that all of the Quick Draw McGraw backround music is there, in light of the backround music is rumored to be the problem that is keeping the QDM video from being released.
THANX
Person C
Bought my copy back in 1996.
Looking forward to seeing H-B Classics Vol. 4 someday!
Person A
Cool, I've only listened to the samples avaliable. Thanks for the input
Although I'm pretty curious about one thing: There's one particular theme I've really loved - it's mosty used for frantic chase scenes, involving trumpets and xylophones. I remember it from the end of Hokey Wolf's "Which Witch is Which?" (best to look it up to know what I mean). Is that included along with the package?
Person B
Frantic Chase
I'm pretty sure I know the one your speaking of. Yes it's there. It's part of the Yogi Bear Show grouping.
Person D
I too bought this set as soon as it came out. In addition to what you've stated, lot of score written for THE JETSONS- my personal favorite- TOP CAT and MAGILLA was also omitted. Virtually every H-B theme until 1966 (SPACE GHOST) was included, but coverage was spotty after that and ended in 1974 (HONG KONG PHOOEY, WHEELIE AND THE CHOPPER BUNCH). There were many memorable Curtin themes within that time frame excluded: ROMAN HOLIDAYS, SEALAB 2020, AMAZING CHAN CLAN, SPEED BUGGY, INCH HIGH, BUTCH CASSIDY.
The otherwise excellent booklet does perpetuate a glaring error in that it makes it appear that Hoyt Curtin was the sole composer of H-B underscores. Obviously that was not the case in the earliest shows; indeed, 1959 'Capital' score from the Quick Draw trilogy was included, but not 1958 score from the original Huck trilogy.
Worse, Ted Nichols was accorded tremendous disrespect by total exclusion of his work in both the booklet and the CD cuts themselves. Nichols, rather than Curtin contributed score to most H-B series produced 1965-71. (Curtin was only credited on the ALICE special, WACKY RACES and WHERE'S HUDDLES.) This is why there's nothing from the 1966-68 Superhero shows as noted above- they were all scored by Nichols (except for frequent reuses of QUEST cues).
While Curtin's contibutions to the H-B studio's legacy can't be understated, Nichols' are just as memorable. His earliest 1965 cues worked equally well on comedic (SECRET SQUIRREL, ATOM ANT) and adventure (SINBAD JR.) shows. His original 1969 SCOOBY-DOO score is an acknowledged classic; he also wrote great original music for DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY and PENELOPE PITSTOP that nicely evoked the series' ambiences. It's debatable whether he or Marty Paitch wrote the 1966 background cues that originated in the ALICE special and/or the MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE theatrical that was recycled heavily in numerous series (LAUREL & HARDY, ABBOTT & COSTELLO, GULLIVER, CATTANOOGA CATS, HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS, ROMAN HOLIDAYS).
I'd always hoped there would be a sequel to PIC-A-NIC BASKET that would feature some of these exclusions. But either sales weren't sufficient, or many masters weren't available. So I made do by taping the TOP CAT and JETSONS scores and playing them in my car while driving on expressways. The effect is remarkable!
Person E
So, that's where some of those cues were first used. I wonder if the same could be said for Paitch's score on HEY THERE! IT'S YOGI BEAR as well. Does it also seem as though the score for SCOOBY and AROUND THE WORLD IN 79 DAYS were produced back-to-back? I sware some of those cues sound too much alike, it seems they've recorded those tracks in one long jam session or some junk.
Person D
Paich is given sole music credit on HEY THERE IT'S YOGI BEAR; he and Nichols are co-credited on A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE. Paich's YOGI score is never heard in any subsequent H-B production, unlike the MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE score. So we have to assume Nichols is behind most of the score that would be recycled in ABBOTT & COSTELLO, GULLIVER, etc. And yet, Hoyt Curtin receives music credit on the ALICE special, which contains many of the same cues in A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE. Confusing, isn't it?
The Around The World in 79 Days shorts seemed to use almost entirely recycled Nichols and Curtin score- largely from MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE, but some going all the way back to the earliest Loopy DeLoop days. Occasionally a cue from SCOOBY-DOO, DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY or PENELOPE PITSTOP (all of which aired on Saturday AM concurrently) could be heard. The three aforementioned CBS series largely used original 'dedicated' scores by Nichols, with relatively little recycling. An odd exception was about half of the Marvelous Muttley shorts, which would recycle old score situationally: JETSONS score for an outer-space fantasy, 'Ricochet Rabbit' Western score for the Wild West, etc.
Other than the nine shorts with the titular characters, the other CATTANOOGA CAT segments recycled older score liberally, but also added some new cues. The Autocat & Motormouse 'chase/traveling' cues mixed leftover WACKY RACE music with original score that was seldom recycled beyond frequent use in FUNKY PHANTOM. Some It's The Wolf score would be reused frequently in ROMAN HOLIDAYS, and in the 1980-81(!) comedic Scooby/Scrappy/Shaggy shorts.
While we're on the subject of Nichols score, a true oddity is the HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS. The first two episodes used a largely original 'funky' score that seemed well-suited to the characters and the Barry/Kirschner/Sedaka chase songs. (Some of this score would be recycled over the next couple of years in HAIR BEAR BUNCH and ROMAN HOLIDAYS.) But the remaining twenty episodes indulged in the same heavy recycling associated with early-1970s H-B. It seemed strange to hear Scatman Crothers, Stu Gilliam and Robert DoQui speaking over music heard on THE MAGILLA GORILLA SHOW. There must have been some unpublicized dispute between H-B and Kirschner to cause such a change. Even the title card jingle was different between the first two episodes and the rest.
Person F
I had the '97 CD of H-B themes, but pawned it, along with others, in 2005 due to my financial situation.
Person B
Space Kidettes
Speaking of recycled Alice Special / Man Called Flintstone backround cues, one other H-B show was not mentioned. The 1966 H-B series "The Space Kidettes" used a lot of those cues.
THANX
Person D
Interesting you bring that up. Until someone nicely put episodes on Youtube, I'd never seen SPACE KIDETTES, which was not part of the syndie package of H-B advernture shows, or on the CN rotation otherwise. By the time I got Boomerang in March 2006, most of the vintage stuff that CN never carried (GULLIVER, GOOBER, PARTRIDGE 2200, RUFF & REDDY) seemed to be gone.
KIDETTES and LAUREL & HARDY were really the only new comedic H-B shows produced in fall 1966. They combined Nichols' 'Alice' cues with 1965 Nichols 'Ant/Squirrel/Sinbad' and the entire 1960-64 Curtin library. The superadventure shows- SPACE GHOST, DINO BOY, FRANKENSTEIN JUNIOR- largely used recycled Curtin 'Jonny Quest' music and some original Nichols adventure score. THE IMPOSSIBLES (which, like KIDETTES, seemed 80% comedic vs. 20% serious adventure) used a largely original rock-oriented instrumental score that was seldom recycled in any subsequent H-B series.
Fall 1966 also saw limited orders of new episodes from the MAGILLA/POTAMUS/ANT/SQUIRREL franchises. All twelve of the involved segments featured the 'Alice' Nichols score to varying degrees (most heavily in the seven new Goofy Guards episodes, hardly at all in the four new Magilla episodes) while still using vintage Curtin. Had ABC renewed THE FLINTSTONES for a seventh season, those episodes would have no doubt mixed scores similarly. The ABBOTT & COSTELLO cartoons released to syndication in fall 1967 certainly did.
About half of the KIDETTE episodes seem to be on Youtube at the moment. The later ones seem virtually all 'Alice' score, but some others are heavy on JETSONS score (fitting, given the 'futuristic/outer space' ambience), and even the 1960-61 'Snagglepuss/Hokey/Yakky' stock. Unfortunately, none of the clips include the closing credit sequence; I'd be curious to see the writing credits. Mike Maltese's touch seems evident at times- when you think about it, Cap'n. Skyhook closely resembles Maltese co-creation Yosemite Sam in design and personality, if not dialect! (P.S. Despite the assertions of many animation references, sidekick Static is voiced by Don Messick- not Butler!)
Person G
All of it composed by the late Phillip Green [1911-1982], who wrote it in England for his native EMI Photoplay Records library, then licensed it to Joihn Seely [1923-2004] in Hollywood where he headed up the library divison of Capital! There's much more of that, someone who I will not name (he isn';t on this board) sent me a person 150 cut set that has so much more. Jack Shaindlin's [1909-1978] scores are also ommitted, as are Bluestone & Cadkin from that trilogy and of course, likewise the other pe1961 music..(Seely, Bill Loose [1911-1991], George Hormel [1928-2006], Spencer Moore, Shaindlin,etc.) Earl Kress and Dr.Demenento DO acknoledge its use. Mr.Kress recalled the COmedy Walker 1 (the Snooper and Bl;abber open one) also used (correctly) in My Three Sons.
Person H
The 1966 seasons also used Johnny Quest score a lot more, and used more of them. It would often suddenly just pop in there out of nowhere in a dangerous scene. Quite an interesting "surprise". Between those and the superadventures, I had thought all of that was new, until Johnny Quest started rerunning on NBC in '79, and then, I watched it more intensely on CN and BOOM.
Some of the cues had begun creeping in the 65 season as well, including the final Flintstones season. I love in the Stonefinger Caper, how they're playing the usual music, and then the tiger in the prison begin coming towards using a Quest cue, then Gazoo changes it to a cub, and it's an earlier Flintstone syle rendition of "rockabye baby", then the guards begin running toward them with a common fast-paced Quest cue, until Gazoo turns them into babies.
I don't know anything about the "Alice" special. Is the score from that the one that the Scooby episode Decoy for a Dognapper begins with?
Person B
Space Kidette end credits
Actually the Space Kidette's end credits are very sparce. The only writing credit is "Story - Tony Benedict".
THANX
Person I
I've been watching a bunch of 'Ozzie and Harriet' shows . There are times when most of the undermusic is the same as the early Hanna Barbera's. I've always wondered where this stock music originated.
What's surprising is that it fits as well for Ozzie, as it does for Yogi !
Person D
Good example; actually, QUEST score did appear sparingly in some comedic 1964-65 cartoons as well. FLINTSTONE Season 5's "Dr. Sinister" used it at the very beginning, on the "Jay Bondrock" TV show the boys are watching. Snatches of QUEST score are also heard in isolated Potamus and Breezely episodes as well, if you listen really carefully.
QUEST score was also common in the other fall 1965 arrivals, especially episodes of Atom, Secret, and the semicomedic SINBAD JR.
The ALICE special originally ran in NBC's prime-time schedule in Spring 1966, just when THE FLINTSTONES was winding up its prime-time run and prior to MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE's theatrical release. It may have had some syndicated repeat appearances; I remember seeing it in a late Sunday afternoon slot around 1980 or '81. NYC's Museum of TV & Radio has a print of it. It doesn't seem like CN or Boomerang has ever repeated it, unlike the following year's Jack and the Beanstalk special with Gene Kelly.
Anyhoo, various cues in the '1966 Nichols score' (to solidify the term as it seems to be used in this thread) may have originated in either MNF, ALICE or both. FWIW I've seen MNF many more times than ALICE, so am much more familiar with the former. So it's difficult to identify which particular cue 'comes from' one or the other. The cue to which you refer that is heard at the beginning of the SCOOBY episode apparently made its debut in MNF. Early in the morning, Fred is searching the hotel and Rome streets for Triple-X, and mistaking various others (an old lady, a baby in carriage) for him.
This particular cue, which commonly was heard in 'morning' scenes, or as a scene or episode intro, was particularly durable. It opens many ROMAN HOLIDAY episodes six years later!
I do recall the climactic chase in ALICE introducing another cue heard in Decoy for a Dognapper, when the gang sees what they think is a rampaging Indian on the railroad track. It would later be heard in virtually every GULLIVER chase scene, and occasionally in MOTOR MOUSE and GLOBETROTTERS as well.
So the '1966 Nichols score' really started in early 1966 and not that fall with the premiere of SPACE KIDETTES, LAUREL & HARDY and new episodes of the GORILLA, POTAMUS, ANT and SQUIRREL franchises. Its only conventional use- i.e. TV series, rather than TV special or theatrical movie- was on the last few FLINTSTONE episodes. That includes Dripper (Fred taking a running start on the diving board, Barney discovering Dripper bouncing Fred); Rocky's Raiders (at the very end, when we learn that Rocky and Reggie are still fighting Baron Von Rickenrock); the series finale My Fair Freddy (The Korman-narrated tour of the Stonyside Country Club; Fred shrinking in humiliation after being discovered in ballet tights).
Fascinating stuff, isn't it?
Person D
Surprising for a Saturday AM network show to have such sparse credits. I suspected the stories were from Benedict (who seemed to enjoy combining cuteness with slapstick cartoon injury), Maltese and/or Dalton Sandifer. They and Warren Foster apparently wrote virtually all H-B shorts 1960-66. Foster seems to have retired sometime between '66 (his last known credit was A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE) and '68. By then Maltese and Sandifer were credited on WACKY RACES, and Benedict was at DFE.
H-B was very negligent in providing credits or closing credit sequences for many of its syndicated shows. MAGILLA and POTAMUS did have the latter, but they were badly lacking: John Stephenson (Col. Fuzzby), Hal Smith (The King, Yappee) and Doug Young (Yippee) are missing, and there were certainly more than six animators. But that's better than what credit info was offered for the WALLY/LIPPY/TOUCHE trilogy or SINBAD: nothing. LAUREL & HARDY and ABBOTT & COSTELLO did list voice credits in their title sequences, but nothing else.
Conversely, Saturday AM network shows of the period- ATOM ANT, SECRET SQUIRREL, SPACE GHOST/DINO BOY, FRANKENSTEIN JR/IMPOSSIBLES had full opening and closing themes, and full credits. OK, maybe not full; Ken Muse animated on one Precious Pupp and two Hillbilly Bears, but his name does not appear in the ATOM ANT credits. But at least the shows are presented as close as possible to their original forms.
So it's a complete mystery who wrote for SINBAD, L&H and A&C. The former was equal parts comedy and adventure. So it could have been the four 'comedic' writers with possible assist from QUEST/SPACE GHOST writers Bill Hamilton, Doug Wildey, and even Ruby and Spears themselves. Ruby and Spears did receive credit on most of the Superadventure shows. As for the Vintage Comic Team Adaptations, they seem largely the work of Benedict and Sandifer- and Foster, if he wasn't retired by that time. Maltese might have used his gift for verbal humor on Bud 'n Lou. Tom Dagenais, who wrote for several Superadventure shows before becoming a mainstay on the comedic shows in 1969, may have had a hand as well.
And getting back to the original subject of this thread, it's interesting to note that PIC-A-NIC BASKET skips all the way from SPACE GHOST to BANANA SPLITS, with the other Superadventure shows completely omitted. Too bad; FRANKENSTEIN/IMPOSSIBLES had a great, funky theme enhanced by a 'rapping' Paul Frees. Maybe the others were too monotonous, or not as memorable as the STAR TREK-esque female trilling under the GHOST theme.
Person H
That must be John Seely, then. His music was used on early HB, and other places during a stike in '58 (even some Looney Tunes), and can be heard many other places as well.
Person H
That I'm aware of. Dr. Sinister used that "creepy crawly" piece later on when he had them bound to throw into the bottomless pit. I didn't remember the one at the beginning, and that was one of the ones I thought was new with Space Ghost, where it is used heavily. Magilla "Camp Scamps" even used one piece when the kids were tying to pry loose the rock, and that was the only one I was familiar with when I started seeing the superadventures in sydication in '78. Then the ascending horn chords at 3/4 time when Fred and then Barney encounter the phony Martian on Mars. Because of the horns, that did fit in more with the earlier score.
Meanwhile, my favorite is the "Dragons of Akkida" theme, and the only time it is ever used in the comedic shows is at the beginning of a '66 Peter Potamus episode. Was surprised it was from Quest, and not made for Space Ghost and Dino Boy where it is most frequently used (the latter which reuses the piece along with the dragons, renamed "lizard hounds" when they chase Ugh in one episode).
The other side of this is the comedic pieces used in the superadventures. Like one with Blip opening and closing the iron bar prison doors on someone. Generally ssociated with mechanics, and I remember Fred and Barney either panning for gold or someone doing something with an assembly like or something lie that.
I saw clips of Sinbad on retrojunk. I'm getting conflicting information. There were two seasons; '65 and '66. The first Cartoon Encyclopedia had both seasons produced by HB. The second edition had the first season by Sam Singer productions, then then the second season it transferred to HB. Retrojunk had a clip of both. Yet now, on Mark Evanier's blog a few weeks ago, he says the Singer episodes were made earlier, and both those and the new HB's aired together in '65. Or at least; he mentions the surprise of turning on the show in '65 and it was changed. So I'm not sure if they alternated the versions of the show the same season, or if he got the time mixed up, and watched the original in '65, and then saw the changed one in '66.
The piece on the railroad track is one I've heard on several '65 dated episodes, particularly Atom Ant, Secret Squirrel and related shows. As with several of the other pieces used on dognapper. they are so mixed together, and used in the same shows, it was hard to tell which was which. So I thought those were new with AA and SQ, and pehaps some of the others with MCF and Space Kiddettes. It did always seem newer than the '65 era fare, and I saw all of those as the "new generation" of score (thought it was new with Scooby at first) along with everything else being introuced then. (that must be because it was Nichols. Never knew which one did which cues). There was one piece heavily used on Pebbles and Bamm Bamm I thought was new with that show that I was surprised to see went back to the last Flintstone season. (It's used in Scooby meets Jeannie in part of the picnic scene).
Now you're saying they all began with Alice in "early '66". I know that the Flinstone episodes continued being recorded into '66, debuting as late as March. So were these AA and SQ episodes I saw produced later in the season as well?
Person G
[Re Ozzie and Harriet comment above]
Yep,though he didn't compose all.. M
GAC Forums has had a recent rhead on this, the "Stock music in TV cartoons that you like"?]
The music originated in vairous 1940s libraries, including one John Seely was with in 1940s called Capital Q, then as it got more popular (from all the libraries), it fell in 1955 or so as sub-leased under Seely's then new Capitol Hi=-Q Production.
Libaries, and Composers were:
CAPITOL Q (early eiditon) Mutle
Dave & (son) Byron Chudnow
Herschel BurkeGilbert
Alexander Laszo
and others
EMI PHOTPLAY UK
Phillip Green
LANGLKOIS, now CINEMUSIC
Jack Shaindlin
CAPITOL/Seely
Seely and Loose
Cakdin and Bleusotne'
Jack Cookerly
George Hormel
Specner Moore
and some others.
By this (196) point, after constant recrediting and retitled cues with generic "number/letter/number" code [10-D-9, for instance] cues, the library was now as known today underway, and [Bill] Loose went and divided it under different categories. Comedic/Light [L], Dramatic [D], Experimental {X-this sonds like the stuff that was used in the ealry "Gumby on the moon needs to be recued" pilot episodes], Musical [M--yeah, confusing by now category wise] and Special . By the later fifties some more music and cross licensing was done in yet another series, Production Music Services [This would have the majority of the hevay string music used more on Gumby than on say, Yogi, yet Augie Doggie seemed to have more of the orchestral music.]
Phil Green's, recorded in UK, was which was used for those "Picnic BAsket tracks", btw as I have noted.''
And no0w for THE secret..
TRACK 15 (QUICK DRAW)
First is EM-CT-3, two different ones (Second one is heard all through the Looney Tune short ":Gopher Broke" with those over polite rodents)(1958), and the third is Rural Foxtrot (Iheard on Gumby only once, in ":Chick Feed'< but nermous times in QUick Draw)
TRACK 17 (AUGIE)
Busy Activity from the Kiddie Comedy suite, then 4-PG-131H, then Another of the "City Suite" themes
19 (SUPER SNOOPER)
Comedy Walkers 1 (again, refers to the first two tracks as in the Quick Draw
track!) then third, EM-CT-3 Comedy Circuws (mistitled Toboggan Run since it's under Foghorn Leghorn in Weasel While You work, which utlilized the first of the three under the main title while Bird in a Bonnett had the second-Toboggan;s a Jack Shaindlin-composed track use din Huck, Yogi, Ruff/Reddy, Jinksy, and one Gumby, Racing Game (which IS avaible on that current Gumby Essentuals: The 50s episodes--it's right before clayboy and horse finsih)>
(Whew) And Hoyt Curitn's dedicated gthems for each (Snoooper, besides hiom and Blabber wearing clothes, are also seperated from the other two segments of Qucik Draw McGraw by having a seperate open and a seperate close them.)'
(Sorry for long post!)
By the way information is courtesy of:
Jon Burlingame, "TV's Greatest Hits", Schirmer Books, 1996, 1-12
"Blake", on an undisclosed forum, and Graham Newton's page whcih had a good scan of the John Seely album by "Phillip Green", and "Blake"'s post on a forum which shall remaiun secret by his request, and comparing the titles (the Augie Doggier march that occupies the third of the 17 track on the first CD of that Hanna-Barbera colleciton, 4-PG-131H..)
Person G
At least nine "Phil Green" cues [3 each for Quick, for Augie and for the MID seciton Snooper and blabber, but 100 times more (if you've seen them on Hanna Barbera's site or YouTube, or heard 'em elsewhere or reach into your memory) of those (both by Green, and by Cadkin and Bluestone, Jack Shaindlin, Roger Roger, Jack Cookerly,etc.) are missing as well, from those same..not to mention the different shorter takes on the music tracks in there.
Person H
I must say, the New England Jazz Ensemble's version of "We Wish You a Merry Christmas", (which plays on cable's Music Choice) has horn lines (tenor?) sounding just like Curtin or Nichols (not sure which is which, still), circa 1966. You would swear it was them, as it sounds like it's right out of "The Man Called Flintstone". (Like the jazzy rendition of the theme song that plays throughout).
I'd say that Persons D, G and H are easily the most knowledgeable about that sort of thing, especially the former. If there's some interest, I may upload the other conversations I have "saved" too!
So? Chorake? Wileyk209? Anyone else?
