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Post by mattpricetime on Apr 2, 2021 15:10:19 GMT -5
This is a conversation I feel like we've been having here and there especially in the last few years but I think it's worth drawing out as it's own topic to see how we each interpret the subject and what we hope for the future.
Obviously the term "respectful to the source" can mean a lot of different things to different people. It depends how much change you enjoy. it depends how much of the source you even like. Just because user A feels something is respectful doesn't mean user B also feels the same way. So I don't think there's a right or wrong way to go about this but there are consequences of making changes that perhaps both fans and people at the studio can learn from.
As of right now, how respectful do you think the Scooby series in it's various formats are? Mystery Incorporated? Be Cool? Guess Who? The DTV movies? Scoob? etc.
Do you feel some have been more respectful than others? Do you feel some have been less respectful than others?
Obviously also are you judging respect based only on Scooby? Many of these projects have involved other HB related properties. Do you feel they have been respected or not? Do you think the "fake ghost vs real monsters" issue is important to being "respectful"?
Are there better ways to make changes that you appreciate more? Any ways that just rub you the wrong way? Does the using of older characters in roles matter? Does the need to introduce new characters matter? Are some things just not changeable for you?
Is there a hope for the future on this you feel would help?
I'm going to post this and take some time to think before I write up my own feelings. As I think this is a question that we're all not going to agree on but one I think we should take the time to think about. What do you think my fellow Scooby addicts?
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Post by Doo on Apr 2, 2021 15:48:05 GMT -5
I think everything's pretty respectful to the source thus far, obviously. The only thing I would say hasn't been is Arabian Nights and Get A Clue, along with some of the Scrappy shorts. I think as long as the same core format of five teens solving mysteries is there, with a bit of humor, suspense, and characterization, it's totally acceptable to experiment a bit with different aspects of the gang's dynamic. Return to Zombie Island and Curse of the 13th Ghost complicate this, however, as they weren't very respectful to the tone of their specific sources (Zombie Island and 13 Ghosts), but I would say generally, as long as it's not a sequel, it's okay for them to experiment a bit. I'm sure my thoughts may change and develop though as I keep thinking through this along with you all, as this is a very complex and detailed question.
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Post by scoobyfan27 on Apr 2, 2021 15:52:23 GMT -5
I think the harsh reality is no one will ever be truly pleased. One of the good yet bad things about Scooby series being so varied is that in a way it has divided the fanbase. You have people who ADORE Mystery incorporated and others who HATE it with a passion. You have fans who love Scrappy and others who hate him, etc. With all these different tastes it’s hard to please everyone. When Goblin King came out I remember reading a ton of reviews online that they were disappointed that the monsters were real and that it felt way to out there for Scooby-Doo. But you also have fans that will complain when it’s not that way.
I think the best thing to do is take elements that are universally loved by the majority of the fan bases and make series/movies like that. For example:
1. Dark tone: most fans love the original SDWAY and The Scooby-Doo Show for its darker spooky tone.
2. Memorable monsters: monsters that stand the test of time like Space Kook, Creeper, Captain Cutler etc.
3. Fake monsters: this is after all what Scooby is known for. It’s always fun to guess who’s behind the mask. If they worked on not making the culprits so obvious and made memorable mysteries this can make everyone happy.
4. Velma’s personality. I’ve said in another website that the issue with Velma isn’t that she’s skeptical. Velma has always been skeptical. The difference is that in SDWAY and WNSD she was never a jerk about it. For example, if a little kid says he’s scared of the monster under his bed. What works better? “Hey kid it’s ok things aren’t what they seem, here look I’ll look with you to show your there’s nothing to be scared of” OR “Listen you fool! Monsters aren’t real! Shut up and go to bed!”
See? They are both the same thing essentially but the DELIVERY is way off in the later. Velma was always the rational one but her delivery was never arrogant rather it was more reasonable. If they tweak that no one would have an issue.
5. Occasional appearances of Scooby-Dum/Scrappy. Sure there’s people that don’t like them but if they have occasional appearances like the Hex Girls everyone would be satisfied.
6. No sequels! I think in general sequels are never received as well as the originals. Zombie island did NOT need a sequel. That movie ended with absolutely no loose ends and making a sequel would contradict the whole ending of the original movie.
If they pay homage and have little Easter eggs. (Like werewolf Shaggy making a cameo in the Halloween special of WNSD, the Flim Flam statue in SDMI, Vincent Van Ghoul in Mystery Incorporated) these little homages are nostalgic and don’t step on anyone’s toes.
This way WB appeals to as many fans as possible without making too many feel isolated.
An example of people never being satisfied is the upcoming Velma series. It’s said to be exclusively for adults and I’ve had numerous sources say there will be blood, sex, and a bit of gore in that series. People were begging for darker Scooby yet they decide to go to an EXTREME and go over board.
Part of the reason Scooby-Doo Where Are You remains the most popular series despite so many series coming after it was that it never went overboard and tried too hard. It was “just right”. It was dark but not to the point kids can’t watch it. It was funny but not childish. And it was unique without being try hard. I think if WB learn balance and take universally liked elements to make one solid series/movies they would have a hit on their hands.
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Post by mattpricetime on Apr 2, 2021 15:58:31 GMT -5
For me I'm a fully admitted big fan of the Hanna Barbera library so i'm naturally the kind of person that enjoys seeing more of the characters but at the same time I have a limit as to how much change I like before I feel like they aren't the same characters anymore.
This is one of the major reasons Mystery Incorporated doesn't work as well for me. The serial and darker and edgier concepts are ones I like and wouldn't mind seeing more of, but I just wish the show had used more older characters and not altered as many of they did. I felt like it strayed too far at times. My feelings were similar on Be Cool. I think Guess Who had done a bit better at this but maybe this is a nitpick i'd be saying no matter what. I still watched them after all despite those feelings.
I think the DTV's have been pretty respectful but the latest four have had problems for me. The doing sequels to 13 Ghosts and Zombie Island but not letting them be outright supernatural adventures rubbed the wrong way. Velma's portrayal as of late has also bothered me, in ways that I didn't mind when it was in MI or the previous movies. The more recent too have provided similar feelings towards Daphne as I feel Daphne was better respected pre-Be Cool.
Scoob provided me with a weird feeling. Where like MI I accepted it was going to be a new continuity and expect some differences. But take Blue Falcon for example. In MI i felt they really just made Blue Falcon a Batman joke turning him from Adam West like to Frank Miller like and he was done after one episode. That didn't feel respectful to me. At first I wanted to feel he same way about making the Blue Falcon have a son and Dynomutt now have the reverse dynamic. But then I saw scenes like Dick Dastardly cry over Muttley and Scooby crying over Shaggy's sacrifice and it hit me in ways I didn't expect. After a second watch I started to think "is this changed just because they wanted something different" or "is this changed because there's a backstory they want to reveal in a sequel or spinoff". That made me rethink things. Like in the past MI changed Velma but I really liked the way they wrote her throughout the show. I started wondering if characters always being rebooted too much makes this problem worse. Would I have been less hard on MI Blue Falcon as I was Scoob Blue Falcon if he had potential to be more than one episode? It's possible. Would that even be possible in a more episodic series or is such story telling only workable in serial forms like MI or a potential movie series?
it made me wonder if that lack of a real direction for the franchise/s as a whole has it's disadvantages. While we do get to see different people's concepts of what Scooby can be, we don't often see versions of characters go anywhere. At least not in the way it used to be with Hanna Barbera where characters often had an afterlife even after their first show was over. Scooby's shows didn't always stay the same but I never questioned that he as Scooby in the HB era. Same for Fred Flintstone. But certain characters did not stay the same throughout the whole time. Early 70s Daphne isn't the same as 80s Daphne in several ways, why didn't that bother me? But now when we see interesting characters is there any hope they could ever be like that? Are we ever going to see characters introduced in more modern works be elevated to at least Hex Girl status? Whose going to be Fred's parents when we next see them? Will Scrappy ever be a star again? Will each show continue to just reboot everything?
And of course this leads me back to the point that made me start this thread. Is that faithful to the Hb legacy or is Scooby just missing something with that much freedom. I feel like between MI, 13th Ghost, Return to ZI, and Scoob there's a market for something ambitious with Scooby and his fellow characters but I just don't think they've found the right combination that feels faithful to enough of the fanbase to take it to the level it could be. Perhaps there's a happy medium between older fans and new fans that could arise in the future.
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Post by mattpricetime on Apr 2, 2021 16:15:14 GMT -5
Part of the reason Scooby-Doo Where Are You remains the most popular series despite so many series coming after it was that it never went overboard and tried too hard. It was “just right”. It was dark but not to the point kids can’t watch it. It was funny but not childish. And it was unique without being try hard. I think if WB learn balance and take universally liked elements to make one solid series/movies they would have a hit on their hands.
You hit on that point in your wall of text as mine but in a different way. I feel like we lost that balance that needs to be addressed. You can't please everyone all the time but I think the system that HB used to have helped a lot more with that then the fans or executives realized.
Finding a happy medium that can actually have a long term trajectory and then have the additional other takes along side it might be one way to go about that. If a series and DTV can come out at the same time and be different, I don't think this ideal is impossible.
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Post by Dyland on Apr 2, 2021 20:48:50 GMT -5
Any long lasting franchise like Scooby-Doo owes a lot of its success to its roots: where it came from, (the initial version) and the fans that made it popular in the first place. Nobody wants a copy-and-paste low effort continuation, just as *most don't want a total reimagination. It's trying to find the perfect sweet spot between those that shows usually aim for. I only really think the source material is being "disrespected" when a writer/showrunner begins to take themselves and their incarnation too seriously - often while disrespecting the shoulders they're standing on. Thankfully, the Scooby franchise hasn't really had any instances of that, although, there are certainly some "close calls" like Return to Zombie Island (disrespecting the original story) Get a Clue (WB intentionally wanted a show "the exact opposite of What's New") and even Mystery Incorporated (completely changing character personalities, making a new miss-matched ""canon,"" etc. etc.) It's perfectly fine to like any of the above mentioned shows/versions. Just, one has to admit the differences between it and SD:WAY vs, say, the differences between TNSDM or APNSD vs SD:WAY - which are generally tonally closer. Any time a franchise goes a wildly different direction *cough*Sherlock, Disney Star Wars, MCU*cough* from the source material, it's bound to not only peeve off the present fanbase, but bring in entirely new fans who may not even enjoy what the new stuff is based on. That's where fan division/issues/schisms nearly always stem from. Basically, franchises (both historically, and now) tend to sway back and fourth. Sometimes they stray a little too far from what made the franchise to begin with. Other times, it's too copy and paste. Unfortunately, a lot of that is subjective - not only to the audience, but to the rights holders as well. Generally, though, the pendulum swings back. (Just look at Be Cool's artstyle vs Guess Who) That being said, it can be frustrating when fan division gets in the way. But, from what I've seen, the Scooby fan community (especially in these forums) are probably one of the most non-toxic I've ever seen.
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Post by cometcrystal on Apr 2, 2021 21:30:07 GMT -5
I think some people get way too caught up in how different new Scoobys are in comparison to the original ones. The franchise is 50 years old; it's gonna evolve and change. Even in cases like Get A Clue, I don't think it's necessarily disrespectful to OG Scooby; it was just trying something new out, and it didn't work that well. It happens.
The ones I would classify as the most "disrespectful" to the OG series are the 2002 movie and Monsters Unleashed. I do enjoy them both a lot, but watching them can be really frustrating.
Like everyone else said, it's impossible for everybody to be happy at once. I'm just glad to see Scooby still going strong, and I predict it'll still be going strong for many, many years to come.
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Post by scoobyfan27 on Apr 2, 2021 23:44:22 GMT -5
Any time a franchise goes a wildly different direction *cough*Sherlock, Disney Star Wars, MCU*cough* from the source material, it's bound to not only peeve off the present fanbase, but bring in entirely new fans who may not even enjoy what the new stuff is based on. That's where fan division/issues/schisms nearly always stem from. THIS! I have seen this first hand on Twitter and even Reddit with Mystery Incorporated. I’ve read countless comments like “it’s the only good Scooby-Doo show”, “Scooby Doo was only good when it was SDMI”, “if it isn’t like SDMI I don’t want to watch it”, “I’ve tried watching other Scooby-Doo shows after SDMI and they all stink”, etc. I’ve read many comments just bashing every Scooby show that’s not SDMI. Obviously that’s not the issue with us hardcore Scooby Doo fans but as you mentioned since SDMI was so different it definitely attracted new fans and almost gave them a false idea of how the whole franchise is like. I’ve spoken to people who’s first introduction to Scooby was SDMI and they are often shocked that there’s no other Scooby series like it. As you have all mentioned finding that sweet balance of keeping the general fan base happy and not isolating anyone is the sweet spot. If they were to make a SDWAY 2.0 but darker, grittier, some character development, fake monsters, and OCASIONAL appearances by Scooby’s family members, I’m pretty sure 99% of the fan base would be MORE than satisfied. Which is why I think this is the direction WB needs to go. As much as I love Guess Who it was painfully bland at times. Be Cool Scooby Doo had amazing writing and was actually funny but people were put off by the animation . Imagine if they combined the writing style of Be Cool with the animation of Guess Who. It would arguably be one of the most popular series. It’s all about balance.
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Post by Ark on Apr 3, 2021 0:50:17 GMT -5
If somebody is going to rework something, just DO A GOOD JOB! I know this sounds simplistically simple, but that's really all I ask. Be Cool appeared to be satire and scared people off, but the writing was good enough to redeem most episodes, I would say.
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Post by Ark on Apr 3, 2021 1:05:56 GMT -5
I agree with Dott on Get a Clue. It was a genuine attempt at a new Scooby show, which served as a clear precursor to Mystery Incorporated in my mind. It was a tad too far ahead of its time to make it all work right, not unlike ambitions Sega had with their Dreamcast console back in the day. Get a Clue didn't attempt to change Scooby or Shaggy to any significant degree that I recall-- there were more issues stemming from music choice, odd pacing, and a strange plot. I suppose changing the nature of the characters themselves bothers me more when it comes specifically to respecting the source. Dropping Scooby into new environments was something even Hanna-Barbera did, while altering Scrappy to be a villain is quite clearly satire and disrespectful to a character who would never be evil in the Hanna-Barbera canon.
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Post by matt on Apr 3, 2021 1:11:00 GMT -5
This is a really excellent thread here. Here’s my two cents:
I agree with just about everything here, but I think one of the biggest points I need to talk about is real vs fake monsters. The original Scooby format is obviously fake monsters, but that doesn’t necessarily make using real monsters disrespectful and it doesn’t make it any less Scooby. I would say that with Warner Brothers that the era of using real monsters much at all is now over, and I’m okay with that. However, where it becomes infuriating and absolutely disrespectful is when they try and go back on that by making sequels to previous episodes or movies and saying they were fake all along. No. They. Weren’t. My whole April Fools thread was making fun of this. Most of the recent Scooby material hasn’t been bad in itself, but just Warner Bros attitude and lack of effort (from Warner Bros themselves, not the series writers who are doing great) is nauseating. I feel that both Be Cool and the second season of Guess Who are both written extremely well for what they are supposed to be. The problem is that after Mystery Incorporated, Warner Bros decided that Scooby needed to be as copy and pasted as much as possible. I know this is Scooby Doo we are talking about, it’s known for being formulaic, but it doesn’t have to be like this. Be Cool ended up being really good, mostly due to the effort and love put into the show by the creators, and Guess Who is really starting to bit its stride now, but I can’t say I’m not disappointed that Scooby has been diminished to such a small scope and the idea that Scooby can only be this is what I view as disrespectful to the source
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Post by matt on Apr 3, 2021 1:58:35 GMT -5
while altering Scrappy to be a villain is quite clearly satire and disrespectful to a character who would never be evil in the Hanna-Barbera canon. Idk, I guess I just don’t really take those movies seriously at all and don’t even really consider them in the larger picture of Scooby Doo. It’s just like a separate thing to me, to the point where I can actually laugh at Scrappy being the villain in that movie even though I don’t dislike him and I was pretty annoyed with the little Scrappy jab in Mystery Incorporated because that feels more like real Scooby Doo. I guess that I am just a fan of satire comedy even for things that I love. Granted the better (and more respectful) example of this would probably be Bravo Dooby Doo, which is a blast. Satire is a very efficient method of comedy for a movie or tv show though. Sometimes it’s best to just laugh at yourself and the things you love and remember not to take the small things too seriously
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Post by mattpricetime on Apr 3, 2021 7:55:32 GMT -5
I rethought out one of my points and want to rephrase my feelings on it.
As I think what concept I was trying to hit at but didn't quite put it fully together in the first post was that the loose concept of the shows originally gave the characters the illusion that they were real characters living through a period rather than defined down characters being rebooted. Even if sometimes the continuity did still shift a lot of the events were not that jarring. Even if the status quo changing events happened off screen between incarnations you could easily understand them. it's not hard to see that Scrappy could settle down from his first season incarnation. It's not hard to see Daphne could go off and mature. It's not hard to see how after 13 Ghosts the gang could have drifted apart to come back for Zombie Island. And I think this sentiment applies to HB in general, it's also not hard to see how Mumbly could have finally had enough to of his treatment to become a bad guy in Laff-a-lympics, etc.
I think the changes of more often than not having new creative try to reinvent the wheel sometimes doesn't allow for that same level of contiuation no matter how loose. What's New and several DTVs felt like they wanted to try that but others wanted to be their own thing. Which while I do admit still produce fun shows but still feel like to me as old fan is missing something.
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Post by mattpricetime on Apr 3, 2021 8:16:51 GMT -5
Any time a franchise goes a wildly different direction *cough*Sherlock, Disney Star Wars, MCU*cough* from the source material, it's bound to not only peeve off the present fanbase, but bring in entirely new fans who may not even enjoy what the new stuff is based on. That's where fan division/issues/schisms nearly always stem from. THIS! I have seen this first hand on Twitter and even Reddit with Mystery Incorporated. I’ve read countless comments like “it’s the only good Scooby-Doo show”, “Scooby Doo was only good when it was SDMI”, “if it isn’t like SDMI I don’t want to watch it”, “I’ve tried watching other Scooby-Doo shows after SDMI and they all stink”, etc. I’ve read many comments just bashing every Scooby show that’s not SDMI. Obviously that’s not the issue with us hardcore Scooby Doo fans but as you mentioned since SDMI was so different it definitely attracted new fans and almost gave them a false idea of how the whole franchise is like. I’ve spoken to people who’s first introduction to Scooby was SDMI and they are often shocked that there’s no other Scooby series like it. As you have all mentioned finding that sweet balance of keeping the general fan base happy and not isolating anyone is the sweet spot.
This point i'm totally inline with, as I let on in some of our other conversations. While i'm a big HB fan, I also love Toho and the Universal Monsters. Trust me when I say I felt sometimes like having the same conversation three times with some of those new fans who nearly put all of their reverence to one specific new spot and don't show much knowledge of the older parts of the franchises. I tell people I love crossovers but then I get gone off on because I happen to still think what Scooby Doo meeting Josie and the Pussycats or Mothra vs Godzilla or Frankenstein meets the wolfman were are cooler than The Avengers? It's like i'm fine with not agreeing but don't treat some of us who loved franchises that were doing crossovers long ago like heretics because we liked it before you were in on it.
But i'm also a romantic and a carny at heart so my own artistic endeavors usually swing that if anyone should be catered to it should be the people who stayed with you through the journey. Which is obviously not a universal opinion and probably not a popular one in 2021 Hollywood. But it is relevant to how I see a lot of this so is worth admitting.
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We're also hitting on a point that's very interesting in terms of how we are all defining "source". If we only mean SDWAY there is certain boundaries to be respectful to. If we mean the entirety of the franchise that's even further. If we mean his whole studio of brethren that's even further to the point they nearly covered everything at some point.
As such Scooby had gone so many different places already, it's easy to see how you could argue making changes isn't disrespectful in itself.
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Post by shaggyfan86 on Apr 5, 2021 10:17:00 GMT -5
Eh The only one I really felt that was disrespect to Scooby Doo Franshise was the 13th Ghosts film. It was my number one favorite Scooby series and still is, I refuse to believe that's the actual conclusion to the series, if you saw the series itself none of that films ending makes sense. Not to mention while even if your not a Scrappy fan he still played a big part in the series.
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