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Post by russm on Jul 13, 2020 16:08:20 GMT -5
There was also this fun little bit during the "Scoobynatural" episode (https://youtu.be/jgE8PEUMre4?t=70), the evidence from most versions of Scooby is stacked pretty heavily against the idea Velma is LGBT (not that there's anything wrong with that), and that a former writer just wanted some brownie points during an opportune time with that post. From the tangled web that is the lack of continuity within the Scoobyverse SD:MI was always its own thing, a mirror universe kind of thing. But this isn't new, Velma being gay has been in the fandom for years, decades even. I've been in the Scooby fandom for 10 years and Velma being gay was a thing back then. The live action bit has been known about for ages and the SD:MI thing was mentioned, well this discission thread was started 6 years ago. So this isn't just authors virtue signalling to score 'woke points'. You have to remember the US is a place where should Starbucks change their Christmas cups then folk start to loose the plot. But the joy of Scooby canon is that there is no canon, so if you don't fancy this, a new one will be along in a couple of years. I've written Shaggy/Velma, Fred/Velma, Female OC/Velma, and I think Daphne/Velma (if not I should do just to complete the set). It's all good
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Post by scoobylover on Jul 13, 2020 17:23:36 GMT -5
I’m glad this has been getting a lot of traction, I’ve already seen Buzzfeed, TMZ and others covering the news about Velma being gay in Mystery inc and James Gunn wanting her to be guy in the live action movie. Hopefully this means we’ll have Velma as a full blown lgbt open character in the future!
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Post by scoobylover on Jul 13, 2020 17:24:58 GMT -5
I’m glad this has been getting a lot of traction, I’ve already seen Buzzfeed, TMZ and others covering the news about Velma being gay in Mystery inc and James Gunn wanting her to be guy in the live action movie. Hopefully this means we’ll have Velma as a full blown lgbt open character in the future!
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Post by manbearpig on Jul 13, 2020 18:41:52 GMT -5
Despite my sympathy for Velma & Marcie's relationship, I have to disagree with Tony, despite him being the co-creator. There are details in the series contradicting his statement on Velma's real sexuality. In the beginning, Velma seemed to be genuinely attracted to Shaggy. The whole thing with kissing, hugging and those terrible pants for Shaggy didn't make me feel she was in any doubt with her feelings. I'm not a specialist, maybe this is fluid, but I'll stay with Velma being bi theory. Yes, she desperately wanted to be in the relationship, but her romance with Shaggy wasn't that forced as if she was strictly lesbian.
Apart from Velma, I feel strong J.K. Rowling vibes here. Maybe it would be better to be more open about the romance between Velma and Marcie and say it outright during the creation of the series, instead of making revelations 10 years later? Since the series is long finished, it would be nicer to leave it to the fans to make their own headcanons, because everyone has their unique perception of its story, characters, relationships, etc.
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Post by fredtrap on Jul 26, 2020 13:04:29 GMT -5
Despite my sympathy for Velma & Marcie's relationship, I have to disagree with Tony, despite him being the co-creator. There are details in the series contradicting his statement on Velma's real sexuality. In the beginning, Velma seemed to be genuinely attracted to Shaggy. The whole thing with kissing, hugging and those terrible pants for Shaggy didn't make me feel she was in any doubt with her feelings. I'm not a specialist, maybe this is fluid, but I'll stay with Velma being bi theory. Yes, she desperately wanted to be in the relationship, but her romance with Shaggy wasn't that forced as if she was strictly lesbian. Apart from Velma, I feel strong J.K. Rowling vibes here. Maybe it would be better to be more open about the romance between Velma and Marcie and say it outright during the creation of the series, instead of making revelations 10 years later? Since the series is long finished, it would be nicer to leave it to the fans to make their own headcanons, because everyone has their unique perception of its story, characters, relationships, etc. Amen to all this. I'm sticking with the bi theory, too. I guess they couldn't have made their relationship more obvious, if they were really thought of as a couple during the development of the series, because we all know what Cartoon Network and society in general is like, especially 10 years ago. Sadly, it will take years for LGBT+ couples to be naturally represented in children's shows, at least she's canon LGBT in MI.
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Post by cometcrystal on Mar 16, 2021 20:19:02 GMT -5
As a lesbian myself, I'll weigh in on this conversation several months late: I had "crushes" on guys at one point. There's also many lesbians who were in relationships with men before they realized they weren't attracted to men. It's not unusual for a woman to be involved with men before realizing she's gay.
There are definitely cases where a female character is obviously bi, but is called either gay or straight by the narrative/by fans. A good example of this is Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She was in a relationship with a male character, Oz, for several years before they broke up, and it was obvious she loved him. Her second major relationship was with a female character, Tara, and it's obvious Willow loved her, too. She's definitely bi, but because biphobia exists, a lot of shows have called their bi characters either gay or straight. This is due to people either not realizing the bi label exists, not being able to use the bi label because of censoring, or because they have a prejudice against it.
I don't think Velma is an example of this. Most of her male love interests have been very shallowly-written (one of them is literally just copy-pasted male Velma), and that seems like the same kinda thing I myself went through: developing what I thought were crushes on guys to try and fit into a straight society. It never really goes beyond her thinking the guy is cute and maybe talking a bit.
And her relationship with Shaggy in SDMI, honestly, just further proves to me she isn't attracted to men, personally. During the entire relationship, she is trying to change him to fit this Vision she has in her head of a daydream relationship. And none of it is what Shaggy is. Speaking from personal experience, once upon a time, I kinda had a mental "boyfriend" that I pictured when I thought about relationships. SDMI Shelma is entirely artificial, awkward, and forced, and I don't think she ever actually liked Shaggy in a romantic sense.
Compare that to the two crushes Velma has in the same series: Amy the siren, and Marcie. With Amy, Velma's mystified, and wants to keep her new friend a secret. This is someone she feels a connection with (even though it'd go nowhere since iirc, Amy is an adult; it's a puppy crush) and is very visibly disappointed when she finds out Amy is married. And with Marcie, everything feels seamless and natural. All of their interactions read like people with two genuine crushes who care for each other, instead of trying to fit a mold like she did with Shaggy.
That's just my take on it as a real life lesbian. It's fine if people disagree, but from my own experiences, Velma being a lesbian lines up perfectly with her character.
And for the record, I don't think making the short-haired girl with feminist views a lesbian is "stereotyping" or "being predictable". There's a shortage of lesbian representation everywhere (just as there is with LGBT representation in general), and I'm not gonna be opposed to getting another just because it's "predictable". Plus, there's a LOT of short-haired lesbians with feminist views in real life, just like there are a lot of flamboyant gay men in real life, and they don't deserve to be forgotten; they are not stereotypes for existing authentically.
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Post by Doo on Mar 16, 2021 22:32:11 GMT -5
As a lesbian myself, I'll weigh in on this conversation several months late: I had "crushes" on guys at one point. There's also many lesbians who were in relationships with men before they realized they weren't attracted to men. It's not unusual for a woman to be involved with men before realizing she's gay. There are definitely cases where a female character is obviously bi, but is called either gay or straight by the narrative/by fans. A good example of this is Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She was in a relationship with a male character, Oz, for several years before they broke up, and it was obvious she loved him. Her second major relationship was with a female character, Tara, and it's obvious Willow loved her, too. She's definitely bi, but because biphobia exists, a lot of shows have called their bi characters either gay or straight. This is due to people either not realizing the bi label exists, not being able to use the bi label because of censoring, or because they have a prejudice against it. I don't think Velma is an example of this. Most of her male love interests have been very shallowly-written (one of them is literally just copy-pasted male Velma), and that seems like the same kinda thing I myself went through: developing what I thought were crushes on guys to try and fit into a straight society. It never really goes beyond her thinking the guy is cute and maybe talking a bit. And her relationship with Shaggy in SDMI, honestly, just further proves to me she isn't attracted to men, personally. During the entire relationship, she is trying to change him to fit this Vision she has in her head of a daydream relationship. And none of it is what Shaggy is. Speaking from personal experience, once upon a time, I kinda had a mental "boyfriend" that I pictured when I thought about relationships. SDMI Shelma is entirely artificial, awkward, and forced, and I don't think she ever actually liked Shaggy in a romantic sense. Compare that to the two crushes Velma has in the same series: Amy the siren, and Marcie. With Amy, Velma's mystified, and wants to keep her new friend a secret. This is someone she feels a connection with (even though it'd go nowhere since iirc, Amy is an adult; it's a puppy crush) and is very visibly disappointed when she finds out Amy is married. And with Marcie, everything feels seamless and natural. All of their interactions read like people with two genuine crushes who care for each other, instead of trying to fit a mold like she did with Shaggy. That's just my take on it as a real life lesbian. It's fine if people disagree, but from my own experiences, Velma being a lesbian lines up perfectly with her character. And for the record, I don't think making the short-haired girl with feminist views a lesbian is "stereotyping" or "being predictable". There's a shortage of lesbian representation everywhere (just as there is with LGBT representation in general), and I'm not gonna be opposed to getting another just because it's "predictable". Plus, there's a LOT of short-haired lesbians with feminist views in real life, just like there are a lot of flamboyant gay men in real life, and they don't deserve to be forgotten; they are not stereotypes for existing authentically. You made some really insightful points here! Expanding on your last point a bit more, I agree that making the short-haired girl a "lesbian" isn't necessarily stereotyping unless the character is made completely one-dimensional as a result, as in the only facet of their personality is that they're a lesbian and they have no other character development. There definitely needs to be a balance between representing different kinds of people without essentializing them down to a single identity, because in reality no one is just a cardboard cutout. That being said, I can understand others' concerns about it being too predictable to have Velma being a lesbian, but I don't think that's what's happening here. Velma's character was so much more than the traditional stereotype of a lesbian in SDMI, and like you brought up in your post, there was genuine character development through the struggle of Velma trying to figure out where she "fit" sexuality-wise.
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Post by matt on Mar 16, 2021 23:47:02 GMT -5
As a lesbian myself, I'll weigh in on this conversation several months late: I had "crushes" on guys at one point. There's also many lesbians who were in relationships with men before they realized they weren't attracted to men. It's not unusual for a woman to be involved with men before realizing she's gay. There are definitely cases where a female character is obviously bi, but is called either gay or straight by the narrative/by fans. A good example of this is Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She was in a relationship with a male character, Oz, for several years before they broke up, and it was obvious she loved him. Her second major relationship was with a female character, Tara, and it's obvious Willow loved her, too. She's definitely bi, but because biphobia exists, a lot of shows have called their bi characters either gay or straight. This is due to people either not realizing the bi label exists, not being able to use the bi label because of censoring, or because they have a prejudice against it. I don't think Velma is an example of this. Most of her male love interests have been very shallowly-written (one of them is literally just copy-pasted male Velma), and that seems like the same kinda thing I myself went through: developing what I thought were crushes on guys to try and fit into a straight society. It never really goes beyond her thinking the guy is cute and maybe talking a bit. And her relationship with Shaggy in SDMI, honestly, just further proves to me she isn't attracted to men, personally. During the entire relationship, she is trying to change him to fit this Vision she has in her head of a daydream relationship. And none of it is what Shaggy is. Speaking from personal experience, once upon a time, I kinda had a mental "boyfriend" that I pictured when I thought about relationships. SDMI Shelma is entirely artificial, awkward, and forced, and I don't think she ever actually liked Shaggy in a romantic sense. Compare that to the two crushes Velma has in the same series: Amy the siren, and Marcie. With Amy, Velma's mystified, and wants to keep her new friend a secret. This is someone she feels a connection with (even though it'd go nowhere since iirc, Amy is an adult; it's a puppy crush) and is very visibly disappointed when she finds out Amy is married. And with Marcie, everything feels seamless and natural. All of their interactions read like people with two genuine crushes who care for each other, instead of trying to fit a mold like she did with Shaggy. That's just my take on it as a real life lesbian. It's fine if people disagree, but from my own experiences, Velma being a lesbian lines up perfectly with her character. And for the record, I don't think making the short-haired girl with feminist views a lesbian is "stereotyping" or "being predictable". There's a shortage of lesbian representation everywhere (just as there is with LGBT representation in general), and I'm not gonna be opposed to getting another just because it's "predictable". Plus, there's a LOT of short-haired lesbians with feminist views in real life, just like there are a lot of flamboyant gay men in real life, and they don't deserve to be forgotten; they are not stereotypes for existing authentically. That’s definitely a helpful and relevant perspective to have on the conversation. I definitely believe that SDMI Velma is a lesbian, but I also believe that SDMI runs separately from the main timeline as it is just a completely different thing. I’ll disagree on the point about all of Velma’s male romantic interests being super shallow. Ben Ravencroft is my top example of this, but I would like to point out Beau from Zombie Island. She definitely did not go straight to having a shallow crush on him, but it was something that was developed after getting to know him. It was never expanded upon after that initial introduction, but I still feel that way. If anyone views Velma as a lesbian, then that’s ok. The thing about media is it’s up to the audience for the interpretation. If you view Velma as a lesbian, then she’s a lesbian. If someone else views Velma as straight, then she’s straight. Everyone is also allowed to have an opinion on the direction the future shows decides to go on that topic. Personally, I don’t view Velma as a strict lesbian in the general timeline, and would be disappointed if they tried to pretend that the events in some of the older (and better) material didn’t happen, but it’s not really a big deal either way for me
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Post by cometcrystal on Mar 17, 2021 12:07:57 GMT -5
As a lesbian myself, I'll weigh in on this conversation several months late: I had "crushes" on guys at one point. There's also many lesbians who were in relationships with men before they realized they weren't attracted to men. It's not unusual for a woman to be involved with men before realizing she's gay. There are definitely cases where a female character is obviously bi, but is called either gay or straight by the narrative/by fans. A good example of this is Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She was in a relationship with a male character, Oz, for several years before they broke up, and it was obvious she loved him. Her second major relationship was with a female character, Tara, and it's obvious Willow loved her, too. She's definitely bi, but because biphobia exists, a lot of shows have called their bi characters either gay or straight. This is due to people either not realizing the bi label exists, not being able to use the bi label because of censoring, or because they have a prejudice against it. I don't think Velma is an example of this. Most of her male love interests have been very shallowly-written (one of them is literally just copy-pasted male Velma), and that seems like the same kinda thing I myself went through: developing what I thought were crushes on guys to try and fit into a straight society. It never really goes beyond her thinking the guy is cute and maybe talking a bit. And her relationship with Shaggy in SDMI, honestly, just further proves to me she isn't attracted to men, personally. During the entire relationship, she is trying to change him to fit this Vision she has in her head of a daydream relationship. And none of it is what Shaggy is. Speaking from personal experience, once upon a time, I kinda had a mental "boyfriend" that I pictured when I thought about relationships. SDMI Shelma is entirely artificial, awkward, and forced, and I don't think she ever actually liked Shaggy in a romantic sense. Compare that to the two crushes Velma has in the same series: Amy the siren, and Marcie. With Amy, Velma's mystified, and wants to keep her new friend a secret. This is someone she feels a connection with (even though it'd go nowhere since iirc, Amy is an adult; it's a puppy crush) and is very visibly disappointed when she finds out Amy is married. And with Marcie, everything feels seamless and natural. All of their interactions read like people with two genuine crushes who care for each other, instead of trying to fit a mold like she did with Shaggy. That's just my take on it as a real life lesbian. It's fine if people disagree, but from my own experiences, Velma being a lesbian lines up perfectly with her character. And for the record, I don't think making the short-haired girl with feminist views a lesbian is "stereotyping" or "being predictable". There's a shortage of lesbian representation everywhere (just as there is with LGBT representation in general), and I'm not gonna be opposed to getting another just because it's "predictable". Plus, there's a LOT of short-haired lesbians with feminist views in real life, just like there are a lot of flamboyant gay men in real life, and they don't deserve to be forgotten; they are not stereotypes for existing authentically. That’s definitely a helpful and relevant perspective to have on the conversation. I definitely believe that SDMI Velma is a lesbian, but I also believe that SDMI runs separately from the main timeline as it is just a completely different thing. I’ll disagree on the point about all of Velma’s male romantic interests being super shallow. Ben Ravencroft is my top example of this, but I would like to point out Beau from Zombie Island. She definitely did not go straight to having a shallow crush on him, but it was something that was developed after getting to know him. It was never expanded upon after that initial introduction, but I still feel that way. If anyone views Velma as a lesbian, then that’s ok. The thing about media is it’s up to the audience for the interpretation. If you view Velma as a lesbian, then she’s a lesbian. If someone else views Velma as straight, then she’s straight. Everyone is also allowed to have an opinion on the direction the future shows decides to go on that topic. Personally, I don’t view Velma as a strict lesbian in the general timeline, and would be disappointed if they tried to pretend that the events in some of the older (and better) material didn’t happen, but it’s not really a big deal either way for me The thing with characters like Ben and Beau for me is that they're only in one movie each. Velma has enough time to meet them and talk a bit, but she's never had a male love interest over the course of a series, where the foudnation is strong enough for me to think it holds long term weight. Like I said, I even went so far as to schedule a date with a man IRL before realizing I was gay, and was friendly with several. That's my own perspective, though. In the end, Velma is fictional, and thus her interpretation is left up to the individual, like you said. I can only present my viewpoint and explain my line of thinking. Personally, I keep the same LGBT headcanons across all Scooby canons (bisexual Daphne, to name another), and other things like the character's lived experiences are what vary between canons. But it's always interesting hearing other perspectives!
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Post by cometcrystal on Mar 17, 2021 12:10:47 GMT -5
As a lesbian myself, I'll weigh in on this conversation several months late: I had "crushes" on guys at one point. There's also many lesbians who were in relationships with men before they realized they weren't attracted to men. It's not unusual for a woman to be involved with men before realizing she's gay. There are definitely cases where a female character is obviously bi, but is called either gay or straight by the narrative/by fans. A good example of this is Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She was in a relationship with a male character, Oz, for several years before they broke up, and it was obvious she loved him. Her second major relationship was with a female character, Tara, and it's obvious Willow loved her, too. She's definitely bi, but because biphobia exists, a lot of shows have called their bi characters either gay or straight. This is due to people either not realizing the bi label exists, not being able to use the bi label because of censoring, or because they have a prejudice against it. I don't think Velma is an example of this. Most of her male love interests have been very shallowly-written (one of them is literally just copy-pasted male Velma), and that seems like the same kinda thing I myself went through: developing what I thought were crushes on guys to try and fit into a straight society. It never really goes beyond her thinking the guy is cute and maybe talking a bit. And her relationship with Shaggy in SDMI, honestly, just further proves to me she isn't attracted to men, personally. During the entire relationship, she is trying to change him to fit this Vision she has in her head of a daydream relationship. And none of it is what Shaggy is. Speaking from personal experience, once upon a time, I kinda had a mental "boyfriend" that I pictured when I thought about relationships. SDMI Shelma is entirely artificial, awkward, and forced, and I don't think she ever actually liked Shaggy in a romantic sense. Compare that to the two crushes Velma has in the same series: Amy the siren, and Marcie. With Amy, Velma's mystified, and wants to keep her new friend a secret. This is someone she feels a connection with (even though it'd go nowhere since iirc, Amy is an adult; it's a puppy crush) and is very visibly disappointed when she finds out Amy is married. And with Marcie, everything feels seamless and natural. All of their interactions read like people with two genuine crushes who care for each other, instead of trying to fit a mold like she did with Shaggy. That's just my take on it as a real life lesbian. It's fine if people disagree, but from my own experiences, Velma being a lesbian lines up perfectly with her character. And for the record, I don't think making the short-haired girl with feminist views a lesbian is "stereotyping" or "being predictable". There's a shortage of lesbian representation everywhere (just as there is with LGBT representation in general), and I'm not gonna be opposed to getting another just because it's "predictable". Plus, there's a LOT of short-haired lesbians with feminist views in real life, just like there are a lot of flamboyant gay men in real life, and they don't deserve to be forgotten; they are not stereotypes for existing authentically. You made some really insightful points here! Expanding on your last point a bit more, I agree that making the short-haired girl a "lesbian" isn't necessarily stereotyping unless the character is made completely one-dimensional as a result, as in the only facet of their personality is that they're a lesbian and they have no other character development. There definitely needs to be a balance between representing different kinds of people without essentializing them down to a single identity, because in reality no one is just a cardboard cutout. That being said, I can understand others' concerns about it being too predictable to have Velma being a lesbian, but I don't think that's what's happening here. Velma's character was so much more than the traditional stereotype of a lesbian in SDMI, and like you brought up in your post, there was genuine character development through the struggle of Velma trying to figure out where she "fit" sexuality-wise. Exactly! It really only runs into a problem when a character's LGBT identity is their entire character, and that's definitely not the case with Velma. Lesbian Velma is just another detail added to an already well-written character.
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Post by matt on Mar 17, 2021 12:49:45 GMT -5
That’s definitely a helpful and relevant perspective to have on the conversation. I definitely believe that SDMI Velma is a lesbian, but I also believe that SDMI runs separately from the main timeline as it is just a completely different thing. I’ll disagree on the point about all of Velma’s male romantic interests being super shallow. Ben Ravencroft is my top example of this, but I would like to point out Beau from Zombie Island. She definitely did not go straight to having a shallow crush on him, but it was something that was developed after getting to know him. It was never expanded upon after that initial introduction, but I still feel that way. If anyone views Velma as a lesbian, then that’s ok. The thing about media is it’s up to the audience for the interpretation. If you view Velma as a lesbian, then she’s a lesbian. If someone else views Velma as straight, then she’s straight. Everyone is also allowed to have an opinion on the direction the future shows decides to go on that topic. Personally, I don’t view Velma as a strict lesbian in the general timeline, and would be disappointed if they tried to pretend that the events in some of the older (and better) material didn’t happen, but it’s not really a big deal either way for me The thing with characters like Ben and Beau for me is that they're only in one movie each. Velma has enough time to meet them and talk a bit, but she's never had a male love interest over the course of a series, where the foudnation is strong enough for me to think it holds long term weight. Like I said, I even went so far as to schedule a date with a man IRL before realizing I was gay, and was friendly with several. That's my own perspective, though. In the end, Velma is fictional, and thus her interpretation is left up to the individual, like you said. I can only present my viewpoint and explain my line of thinking. Personally, I keep the same LGBT headcanons across all Scooby canons (bisexual Daphne, to name another), and other things like the character's lived experiences are what vary between canons. But it's always interesting hearing other perspectives! Well I definitely respect your perspective and opinion on the matter even if we disagree a little bit about Velma being into men or not
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Post by Jinkies on Aug 31, 2023 1:58:04 GMT -5
Upon finishing my latest rewatch, I have new thoughts! In my opinion, it is a yes and a no. I definitely think there was something there, however I feel like it was leaning toward a one-sided relationship. As in I think to Marcie, Velma was it for me. All she needed. Her friend, confidant, the whole thing. She poured a lot into Velma, and while the gang was broke up, it was reciprocated. When the gang gets back together and we start to dive into the overarching plot, Velma kind of starts to slip away. And loses feelings/interest, but Marcie doesn’t. I don’t think that Velma would have sacrificed herself for Marcie in the same way that Marcie did for Velma. When the timeline resets, I feel like they were in a relationship somewhat. Working together on a science project, and their body language says it all. Very comfortable, very close. But Velma almost immediately goes off with the gang, and it isn’t clear as to if she will stay in touch with Marcie or not. I definitely think they had crushes on one another, and may have even dated, but it definitely was not an equal relationship. And neither is at fault for that
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